Lying To Nazis

[HisChildForever]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1273601862' post='2108744']
2485[b] By its very nature, lying is to be condemned[/b]. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others.[b] [u]The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity.[/u][/b] The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
[/quote]
Bolded/underlined for emphasis. If having the jews killed is more just and charitable than lying to nazis...

Here's a question: why is lying a sin? I.e., when did God say that it was sinful?

Edited May 11, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 10:39 AM' timestamp='1273599594' post='2108715']
In this situation, it's murder as much as is ambushing a group of soldiers, meaning not at all.
[/quote]

ok, so what do you think about Iraqis ambushing groups of american soldiers? guns, car bomb etc.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1273608947' post='2108841']
Bolded/underlined for emphasis. If having the jews killed is more just and charitable than lying to nazis...

Here's a question: why is lying a sin?
[/quote]

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."280 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: [b]"You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."[/b]281

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='11 May 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1273608964' post='2108842']
ok, so what do you think about Iraqis ambushing groups of american soldiers? guns, car bomb etc.
[/quote]
Why are you asking me about Iraqis versus Americans? That's purposely obfuscating, IMO.
An ambush is not necessarily immoral. It is not immoral by its nature.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='11 May 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1273608964' post='2108842']
ok, so what do you think about Iraqis ambushing groups of american soldiers? guns, car bomb etc.
[/quote]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1273609077' post='2108847']
An ambush is not necessarily immoral. It is not immoral by its nature.
[/quote]
But it involves a lie, by way of purposefully withholding the truth.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1273609925' post='2108859']
But it involves a lie, by way of purposefully withholding the truth.
[/quote]
I disagree. Did you read the CCC definition of a lie?

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1273609077' post='2108847']


Why are you asking me about Iraqis versus Americans? That's purposely obfuscating, IMO.
An ambush is not necessarily immoral. It is not immoral by its nature.
[/quote]

well, you just said ambushing a group of soldiers is not murder at all, so i was wondering if you wanted to further qualify that, circumstance, etc.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 05:05 AM' timestamp='1273572353' post='2108561']
If you are hiding Jews from the Nazis and the Nazis come knocking at the door, you have only two logical options.

You lie.
You give the Jews up (to be treated like dogs and inevitably killed).

Which one is more evil?
[/quote]

There is always the option of using a mental reservation, which would neither involve lying nor handing the Jews over.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1273609954' post='2108860']
I disagree. Did you read the CCC definition of a lie?
[/quote]
I did, and to borrow from my friend Apo, the Catechism is not binding.
I do not think that the Catechism's definition is fully developed.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='11 May 2010 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1273609987' post='2108862']
well, you just said ambushing a group of soldiers is not murder at all, so i was wondering if you wanted to further qualify that, circumstance, etc.
[/quote]
I think (hope) I said it's not necessarily murder. It would have to fall under the just war criteria.

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1273610191' post='2108865']
I did, and to borrow from my friend Apo, the Catechism is not binding.
I do not think that the Catechism's definition is fully developed.
[/quote]
Ok. So where is it lacking?

[Vincent Vega]

Because as with sins of omission, I think purposely withholding the truth in any form should be considered lying.
Perhaps it could be divided into actively lying and passively lying.

"A half-truth is a whole lie." - Jewish proverb.

[HisChildForever]

To be fair, we are trying to wrap our finite minds around a concept given by an infinite God. That was directed to US and J-LO.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1273610602' post='2108873']
Because as with sins of omission, I think purposely withholding the truth in any form should be considered lying.
Perhaps it could be divided into actively lying and passively lying.

"A half-truth is a whole lie." - Jewish proverb.
[/quote]
Why is passively withholding the truth morally the same as actively leading one away from it? The Catechism in fact approaches that saying that, since some people may not have the right to know the truth, one is not obligated to tell them. They specifically mention instances when telling the entire truth would cause gossip or scandal. It would be an offense against prudence, and in many cases, a breach of trust.
If a man asks a priest what he just heard in Confession, the priest in fact must withhold the truth. He cannot say "I heard no confession", because that is a lie, but he is obligated to withhold the truth. In this case he withholds the truth by remaining silent on the matter.

[Jesus_lol]

to HCF:

yes yes, i know


my stand is i would lie for sure, or anything else needed to save lives. if it turns out to be bad for my soul... well someone said "the greatest form of love is to lay down ones life for their friends(terribly paraphrased)" and i think laying down ones soul for such a noble purpose would be worth it.

not that i think lying in the first place is wrong.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Jesus_lol