Lying To Nazis

[Jesus_lol]

you have to pay the butchers bill either way.

[Resurrexi]

Godwin's law.

[Vincent Vega]

Except the thread started about Nazis.

[princessgianna]

I have to be honest I am not sure what I would do.

I would hope that I would remain a strong Catholic but one never knows till one acts!

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='havok579257' date='09 May 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1273461463' post='2107918']
and yet by killing those 2 gestopo agents, you have now put a death mark on you, your wife and children, your neighor's families, all the hiding jews and so on. so by your action you are now responsible for the death of over a handful of people. that is morally wrong and those death's are on your head for your actions. and i would say your sinning at the same time. cause knowing that killing the gestoppo would mark everyone around you for dead, is not morally right. all your neighbors who did not turn you in would be dead. your family would be dead. all because of your selfish actions. actions which if you did not directly take at the time would not have lead to the deaths of all those people.[/quote]

So just let the Nazis round up the Jews in peace, like everyone else is doing. Or lie. Because sometimes, intrinsically immoral actions are moral. Is that what you're saying? No more word games for you, Havok.

[quote]it would be better just not to hide jews if your refusing to lie to the nazi. cause if you hide jews and then don't lie tothe nazi, you are just as responsbile for those deaths as the nazi since it was you who put the jews in the situation that guarented them to die.
[/quote]

No, what you're saying, without admitting it so far, is, "You should commit the intrinsically immoral act of lying to the Nazis if you hide Jews." Admit it.

Do you want to know who put Jews in a situation that guaranteed them to die? Proximately, the Nazis who were killing Jews. They have the most moral responsibility. They are the murderers. Ultimately, who was responsible for killing the Jews? People who voted to give other men an artificial monopoly on violence, and who yielded the power to assert some "right" to use aggressive violence.

I'm going to lay it out plainly, Havok. One may not do evil that good may come of it. You're a heretic if you obstinately and publicly deny that fact.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 11, 2010 by Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

If you are hiding Jews from the Nazis and the Nazis come knocking at the door, you have only two logical options.

You lie.
You give the Jews up (to be treated like dogs and inevitably killed).

Which one is more evil?

[MIKolbe]

Must I choose evil?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='11 May 2010 - 08:03 AM' timestamp='1273579421' post='2108569']
Must I choose evil?
[/quote]

I think Christ would understand that we do not want to lie, but we do want to save lives.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 05:05 AM' timestamp='1273572353' post='2108561']
If you are hiding Jews from the Nazis and the Nazis come knocking at the door, you have only two logical options.

You lie.
You give the Jews up (to be treated like dogs and inevitably killed).

Which one is more evil?
[/quote]

That is a utilitarian option, (which happens to be a false and limited option) and not a Catholic option. Choose a Catholic option. As MlKolbe said, there is no such thing as a situation in which the only way out is to commit a sin.

This is supposed to be a Catholic forum. Embrace Catholic teaching on morality.

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 May 2010 - 09:02 AM' timestamp='1273582961' post='2108589']
That is a utilitarian option, (which happens to be a false and limited option) and not a Catholic option. Choose a Catholic option. As MlKolbe said, there is no such thing as a situation in which the only way out is to commit a sin.

This is supposed to be a Catholic forum. Embrace Catholic teaching on morality.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

What is the "Catholic option"? Say "yes" and let the Nazis in? Can you please explain the other options, besides the option of murdering the Nazis, which you proposed earlier - and which cannot possibly be in line with Church teaching?

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 09:00 AM' timestamp='1273582826' post='2108588']
I think Christ would understand that we do not want to lie, but we do want to save lives.
[/quote]
you haven't answered my question.

[HisChildForever]

The only other "option" I can think of is to simply let the Nazis inside and say "take a look for yourself" praying to God the Jews are not found. You still risk the Jews being found and you risk heightening the Nazis' suspicions.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='11 May 2010 - 08:03 AM' timestamp='1273579421' post='2108569']
Must I choose evil?
[/quote]

I honestly PROMISE that I am not trying to be difficult, I just am having an incredibly hard time with this. Lying is certainly immoral but I could just not live with myself if I handed innocent people over to the Nazis. And I TRULY think God would understand, I am not just saying that to make myself look good.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 08:06 AM' timestamp='1273583206' post='2108592']
What is the "Catholic option"? Say "yes" and let the Nazis in? Can you please explain the other options, besides the option of murdering the Nazis, which you proposed earlier - and which cannot possibly be in line with Church teaching?
[/quote]

Anything but sin is the Catholic option. If you think your only two options are, "You can either lie or surrender the Jews," then you ought to expand your imagination. If your option involves sin, it is not an option a Catholic may choose.

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 May 2010 - 09:13 AM' timestamp='1273583603' post='2108599']
Anything but sin is the Catholic option. If you think your only two options are, "You can either lie or surrender the Jews," then you ought to expand your imagination. If your option involves sin, it is not an option a Catholic may choose.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I suggested an alternative in post #147. Can you suggest any? You keep telling me to pick the Catholic option or use my imagination, but you fail to suggest actual examples. Besides committing murder, anyway.