Lying To Nazis

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='11 May 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1273614593' post='2108955']
Withholding information is not a normal, recommended action.
[/quote]

There are plenty of circumstances when withholding information is quite a normal and recommended action. Such would especially be the case for those who have been told many secrets or who frequently have to listen to gossip.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='11 May 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1273614593' post='2108955']
Oh. You're right. Missed that. I was thinking sin of omission and trying to think of an example, like a minor answering a question from a parent, "Where are you going?", with "To a friend's house" and withholding the fact many bad things would be going on there.

I've been told the ends never justify the means (WWII thread). Now we have another case where the means (lying) justifies the ends (saving lives). Sure, we can pretty up the means with fancy terms like "mental reservation," but it's still a case of the means justifying the end. Withholding information is not a normal, recommended action.

"Do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?"
[/quote]
I can never support your attempt to force utilitarian morals into Catholic teaching.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1273614850' post='2108960']
I can never support your attempt to force utilitarian morals into Catholic teaching.
[/quote]

Indeed, Nihil. I will post once more something I posted earlier in this thread.

"And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 May 2010 - 05:52 PM' timestamp='1273614767' post='2108959']
There are plenty of circumstances when withholding information is quite a normal and recommended action. Such would especially be the case for those who have been told many secrets or who frequently have to listen to gossip.
[/quote]
I can agree with that.

"And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."

And yet, that's what it sounds like is going on.

[HisChildForever]

Let us all be grateful that we will never be put into a situation like this (God willing).

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='havok579257' date='11 May 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1273588773' post='2108634']
if you don't want to lie, don't hide the jews. cause in the end there is only 3 options if you choose to hide the jews in your house.

1. lie
2. murder the nazi which is a sin
3. tell them the jews are hiding in your house
[/quote]

Excuse me? Let's take a look at number two for a second. Then we'll look at number one. What is murder, Havok? Murder is the deliberate killing of an innocent. Are the murdering Nazis innocent? They are not. Does the commandment say, "Thou shalt not kill unless thou wearest a State-issued costume?" Is it magically all right to kill those Nazis if you're wearing a mustard-colored U.S. woolen State costume, or a khaki British State costume? They have just as much right to kill unjust aggressors as anyone else. No, the original text says "Thou shalt not [i]murder." Killing [/i]is not synonymous with [i]murder. [/i]Do the Nazis pose an immediate grave threat to the Jews in your house? Yes, yes they do. Killing them would not only not be murder, as the aggressors are clearly [i]not [/i]innocent, it would be in using force in defense of innocent life.

[quote]its so easy for everyone on here to say i would use mental reservation or trick the nazi's. sorry but that ain't going to work. the nazi were not dumb. yet most people on here act like they could easily outsmart the nazi's. it wouldn't work. people are just trying to get around this question with nonsense. i want to actually here someone answer this question who is against lying who does not use the cop-out of mental reservation or tricking the nazi's. cause it would not work. so for the people who say they would hide jews but not lie, can we get a realistic answer about what you do when the nazi's come to your door?
[/quote]

I'm not talking about mental reservation. It is often a very ineffective method. Tell me: do you[i] really[/i] believe that the Germans are going to come to your door, knock, say, "Are there any Jews here," and when you commit the sin of lying, they will say, "Oh, sorry to bother you, sir. Have a sparkling day?" [i]Really?[/i] That is the most incredible and nonsensical thing about this thread, other than the sheer number of professed Catholics advocating sin.

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 May 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1273622919' post='2109052']
Excuse me? Let's take a look at number two for a second. Then we'll look at number one. What is murder, Havok? Murder is the deliberate killing of an innocent. Are the murdering Nazis innocent? They are not. Does the commandment say, "Thou shalt not kill unless thou wearest a State-issued costume?" Is it magically all right to kill those Nazis if you're wearing a mustard-colored U.S. woolen State costume, or a khaki British State costume? They have just as much right to kill unjust aggressors as anyone else. No, the original text says "Thou shalt not [i]murder." Killing [/i]is not synonymous with [i]murder. [/i]Do the Nazis pose an immediate grave threat to the Jews in your house? Yes, yes they do. Killing them would not only not be murder, as the aggressors are clearly [i]not [/i]innocent, it would be in using force in defense of innocent life.


I'm not talking about mental reservation. It is often a very ineffective method. Tell me: do you[i] really[/i] believe that the Germans are going to come to your door, knock, say, "Are there any Jews here," and when you commit the sin of lying, they will say, "Oh, sorry to bother you, sir. Have a sparkling day?" [i]Really?[/i] That is the most incredible and nonsensical thing about this thread, other than the sheer number of professed Catholics advocating sin.
[/quote]

You really need to tone it down. A few of us are struggling, we are not blatantly "advocating sin". Nor are we "professed" Catholics - we [i]are[/i] Catholics. Have you never struggled with a Church teaching before? Lucky you.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1273623580' post='2109063']
You really need to tone it down. A few of us are struggling, we are not blatantly "advocating sin". Nor are we "professed" Catholics - we [i]are[/i] Catholics. Have you never struggled with a Church teaching before? Lucky you.
[/quote]

If you are saying that one should sin if you are hiding Jews, you are advocating sin. There are no two ways about it. I will not tone down the truth.

I have struggled with Church teachings before. With trusted friends or advisors. Privately. Not in public, where it can and does cause scandal. I will not tone down my defense of Church teaching, as it needs to be louder than the din caused by the "you are an accomplice to murder if you don't lie" crowd.

This is much like the situation where people who are professed Catholics and who advocate torture. Their arguments need to be rapidly and decisively destroyed, before they cause more grave scandal than they already have.

Lastly, calling someone a professed Catholic does not mean that they are not Catholic. It is a call to recognize the teachings of the Church in which they [i]profess[/i] faith, and a challenge to step up to its demands.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 12, 2010 by Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 May 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1273624408' post='2109072']
If you are saying that one should sin if you are hiding Jews, you are advocating sin. There are no two ways about it. I will not tone down the truth.

I have struggled with Church teachings before. With trusted friends or advisors. Privately. Not in public, where it can and does cause scandal. I will not tone down my defense of Church teaching, as it needs to be louder than the din caused by the "you are an accomplice to murder if you don't lie" crowd.

This is much like the situation where people who are professed Catholics and who advocate torture. Their arguments need to be rapidly and decisively destroyed, before they cause more grave scandal than they already have.

Lastly, calling someone a professed Catholic does not mean that they are not Catholic. It is a call to recognize the teachings of the Church in which [i]profess[/i] faith, and a challenge to step up to its demands.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Not everyone on Phatmass has the luxury of discussing the faith in private, i.e. at home or with friends. We are supposed to learn from each other here and grow in the faith. If asking questions and yes, even expressing frustration over a Church teaching promotes scandal then a whole lot of Phatmass members are in trouble. In fact, you proposing that such questions or struggles be stopped promotes scandal because it discourages Catholics from learning more about their faith.

I am not asking you to tone down the Truth, but I am asking you to be a bit more civil in communicating it. You see the way Nihil expresses the Truth while being polite?

[BG45]

Hmm, having only skimmed, this may have been covered already. However, does this mean that some here would condemn Pope Pius XII and Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty for lying to the Nazis about hiding Jews at the Vatican and helping them to escape?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 07:39 PM' timestamp='1273624785' post='2109078']
Not everyone on Phatmass has the luxury of discussing the faith in private, i.e. at home or with friends. We are supposed to learn from each other here and grow in the faith. If asking questions and yes, even expressing frustration over a Church teaching promotes scandal then a whole lot of Phatmass members are in trouble. In fact, you proposing that such questions or struggles be stopped promotes scandal because it discourages Catholics from learning more about their faith.

I am not asking you to tone down the Truth, but I am asking you to be a bit more civil in communicating it. You see the way Nihil expresses the Truth while being polite?
[/quote]

What is uncivil about the manner in which I wrote?

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 May 2010 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1273624998' post='2109081']
What is uncivil about the manner in which I wrote?
[/quote]

Many of your posts have a condescending tone.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1273625060' post='2109083']
Many of your posts have a condescending tone.
[/quote]

I think you may mistake "hurt and disappointed" for "condescending." If my posts have offended anyone, I apologize.

~Sternhauser

[rizz_loves_jesus]

I liked Erin's point a few pages back. What about Air Marshals, FBI agents, spies etc.? Are they sinning also, even though they could potentially save many lives?

Edited May 12, 2010 by rizz_loves_jesus

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' date='11 May 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1273625426' post='2109092']
I liked Erin's point a few pages back. What about Air Marshals, FBI agents, spies etc.? Are they sinning also, even though they could potentially save many lives?
[/quote]

The moral quality of an evil act is not altered by the degree or number of good effects.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 12, 2010 by Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 May 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1273625292' post='2109090']
I think you may mistake "hurt and disappointed" for "condescending." If my posts have offended anyone, I apologize.
[/quote]

It's okay, I'm probably the last person who should criticize someone else's tone anyway.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='BG45' date='11 May 2010 - 07:40 PM' timestamp='1273624834' post='2109079']
Hmm, having only skimmed, this may have been covered already. However, does this mean that some here would condemn Pope Pius XII and Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty for lying to the Nazis about hiding Jews at the Vatican and helping them to escape?
[/quote]
I'd like to know exactly what they said to what questions.

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1273625946' post='2109104']
It's okay, I'm probably the last person who should criticize someone else's tone anyway.
[/quote]
I like that you recognize that.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 May 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1273644148' post='2109244']
I'd like to know exactly what they said to what questions.
[/quote]

I bet they used mental reservations.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 May 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1273625292' post='2109090']
I think you may mistake "hurt and disappointed" for "condescending." If my posts have offended anyone, I apologize.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
That's pretty condescending.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 May 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1273625850' post='2109101']
The moral quality of an evil act is not altered by the degree or number of good effects.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
That's the sort of consistency I've been trying to find.