The Best Arguement In Favor Of Purgatory

[thessalonian]

I don't know if there are any protestants here but if there are could you please explain to me how someone who is imputedly righteous at death becomes truly righteous? Or is there some guarantee that we become completely sanctified by death (if this is the case then either there are protestant saints around completely sanctified or God has em killed when they hit that point). Let's say Billy Graham is riding a bus. A guy gets on and sits next to him who does drugs, lives with a woman, and is an alcolholic. Now Billy does his magic on the guy and the guy "gets saved". If the guy were to go home there will still be bottles of whiskey in the liquor cabinet, drugs in the bedroom, and a woman there whom he is not married to. He would be tempted by these things and most likely fall. He would most likely still have a great struggle ahead of him, though I do know there are people who go cold turkey. But instead of going home the bus runs off a cliff and he and billy die. Now of course we know that billy has gone through a life of sanctification. So either sanctification has no eternal bearing, i.e. it is superflous or something's gotta give at least for the new convert, who is not truly righteous but has Christ's righteousness imputed to him. Remember the book of revaltions says "NOTHING unclean shall enter". And snow covered dung aint clean.

[ChildoftheCreator]

The question seems a little vague to me. But I will give it my best shot You see, faith in Jesus is the reason one would get to heaven. You do not need anything but faith and that faith covers up your sins. John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." That is the verse most often repeated. When we put our faith in God, the blood shed by Jesus' death on the Cross covers up our sins and we are made as white as snow. We no longer have the guilt of sin upon us and can go to heaven. So, there is absolutely no need for Purgatory. The people that do good works will get their reward when they go to heaven. It has nothing to do with the purifying of the soul, or punishment for wrongs commited on earth.

Matthew 6:5-6 (DRB)
[i]5 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that cuddle with my weeble and wub to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.[/i]

The main difference in belief is based upon the principles of punishment and guilt. The Catholic understanding is that these two are distinct. The guilt of our sin is removed (during confession if it is mortal or during Communion if it is venial,) but we must still pay the consequences for our actions through suffering, penance, or purgatory. The Protestant understanding (at least the way that I was taught--there are too denominations many to make any generalizations, but I think that this understanding is common) is that guilt and punishment are intertwined, if one is taken away the other is, too. So when we are forgiven of our sins, we are cleansed of our guilt and there will not be any punishment for our sins. Sure we may not have as many treasures in heaven if we do not store them up, but we will not have to go through purgatory to get there.

[thessalonian]

Do you believe in sanctification? How do you define it?

[ChildoftheCreator]

Well, I might as well go ahead and say that I am hardly the best Protestant. (going through three months of RCIA is not a good track record ) However, I will try to support the other side of the arguement.

You see we need to be baptized. As Luther's small Catechsim says:
[quote]Secondly.

What does Baptism give or profit?--Answer.

It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

Which are such words and promises of God? Answer.

Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Thirdly.

How can water do such great things?--Answer.

It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.[/quote]

As a side note the full small catechism can be found [url="http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html"]here[/url]

So when we are baptized we enter into God's family--or the communion of saints. Saints are both here on earth and on heaven. It is just another word for those who have come to believe in Christ.

A lot of Protestants do not believe that we need baptism to be saved, and yet in the Lutheran church we become part of God's family by being baptized. I am not sure how to reconcile these two points of view (anyone else feel free to jump in and help.) I would say that if a person did not have the chance to be baptized and simply believed that that would be enough.

Sanctification is brought about by the grace of God through faith in Jesus (and baptism if you want to include that) and gauruntees that one will go to heaven if you believe that God has the power to forgive your sins and will do so.

[thessalonian]

Ya, you were more of a lutheran who believes in baptismal regeneration.
We would both agree (catholics and protestants) that one going through sanctification is saved and will go to heaven (excluding getting in to a debate on Once Saved Always Saved)

The fact is however that all protestants that I know agree that sanctification is a process (implying over time). Now if the process is not completed then something has to give at death (getting back to the billy graham example.) I would think or is sanctification really unneccessary. I do appreciate your input.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i've heard some prots say the bad parts of htem are cut off, whatever that means. i guess if you are bad with sexuality then you doj't have sexual organs in heaven, i don't know.

also, you could increase in sanctification, ie how all those scriptures cathlics use can be reconciled with prots.... in heaven. ie the blows that Jesus will do to the good, or the purifying fire all in the bible, could be increasing in sanctifiction. but, they are legally, though not inwardly, pure. snow on dung, all stuff i'm sure you've heard before.

it does seem to come down to how you could call something clean when it's not, etc.

[prose]

I have never heard of anyone believing that only the "good" part of themselves would make it into heaven.

[kujo]

I have always looked at it like this:

All sins have been forgiven; however, must seek God's forgiveness for the sins we commit because they separate us from Him. And, though the sins are forgiven, the effects of the sin remains. It is akin to a scar that forms over a particularly nasty cut. You are "healed" in the sense that you are not bleeding or hurting anymore, yet there is still a mark where the harm had been done to you.

Now, in purgatory, we were [i]purged[/i] of the effects of our sins. Like the paint sprayed on the white canvas, the effects of sin need to be removed in order for us to gain entrance into heaven.

Does that hold water?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1491317' date='Apr 2 2008, 04:11 PM']i've heard some prots say the bad parts of htem are cut off, whatever that means. i guess if you are bad with sexuality then you doj't have sexual organs in heaven, i don't know.

also, you could increase in sanctification, ie how all those scriptures cathlics use can be reconciled with prots.... in heaven. ie the blows that Jesus will do to the good, or the purifying fire all in the bible, could be increasing in sanctifiction. but, they are legally, though not inwardly, pure. snow on dung, all stuff i'm sure you've heard before.

it does seem to come down to how you could call something clean when it's not, etc.[/quote]

Ouch. So Lorainna had it right. Sorry but I had to say it.

[Paddington]

I would say that since Christ's Resurrection is part of the work of salvation, then we can't assume that suffering brings about every part of salvation. That might hold a little water.

Also, being in Heaven can be seen as a sanctifying experience. Now that hardly sounds like a stretch! That is why your Eastern Orthodox brethren have always resorted to that argument.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't know how you could get out of concedeing purgatory exists.

if htey are increasing in santicfication, that could be said to be purgatory.

those who say "cut off" as was said, isn't said much.
i do remember a bible leader saing that once though, when i was talking to him aboput purgatory. he was like in his twenties and fairly reuptatble but i don't know about that position of his as reputable.

i don't know how you could not believe in purgatory, beyond hte semantics of what you call the purifying fire or blows from God etc. i mean, yo ucan say that stuff occurs in heaven, but, what's the big deal? it seems like semantics. plus catholics say purgartoy is like hte porch ot the house of heaven so yeah.

Edited April 2, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Paddington]

To thicken the argument.....(this quote was already on its way, methinks.)

(Contemporary English Version) 1 Cor 3:10 God was kind and let me become an expert builder. I laid a foundation on which others have built. But we must each be careful how we build, 11because Christ is the only foundation. 12-13Whatever we build on that foundation will be tested by fire on the day of judgment. Then everyone will find out if we have used gold, silver, and precious stones, or wood, hay, and straw. 14We will be rewarded if our building is left standing. 15But if it is destroyed by the fire, we will lose everything. Yet we ourselves will be saved, like someone escaping from flames.
16All of you surely know that you are God's temple and that his Spirit lives in you. 17Together you are God's holy temple, and God will destroy anyone who destroys his temple.


1. Hobart has a house/building/whatever.
2. It is made of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and straw.
3. It catches on fire.
4. He runs outside to avoid being burned. (smart move)
5. He stands in the yard and watches that sucker burn.
6. Eventually the fire goes out.
7. The gold, silver and precious stones remain.
8. The wood, hay and straw are gone.
9. Hobart also remains seeing how he ran outside "like someone escaping from the flames."

On the other hand, how could Hobart feel indifferent to what he watches? On the third hand, this is no proof-text for sanctification-thru-torment.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1491381' date='Apr 2 2008, 05:45 PM']I would say that since Christ's Resurrection is part of the work of salvation, then we can't assume that suffering brings about every part of salvation. That might hold a little water.

Also, being in Heaven can be seen as a sanctifying experience. Now that hardly sounds like a stretch! That is why your Eastern Orthodox brethren have always resorted to that argument.[/quote]

Paddington,

We do grow through all eternity in knowledge and cuddle with my weeble and wub of God and so to that extent it could be seen as "sanctifiying". But what your missing here is that the doctrine of imputed righteousness says that we are not holy, pure, and righteous as ourselves. Our "filthy rags" rags are covered over by Christ's rigtheousness. We still sin, we still have wicked thoughts, even Paul says "the good that I would do I do not, while the evil that I would not do I do", we still have addictions (see my story about Billy Graham above). These things do heal over time but THEY CANNOT EXIST IN HEAVEN and you have NO GUARANTEE ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE that we die the instant we become completely clean and righteous. You can use all the rhetoric you want to that you think is an arguement against purgatory that Christ guarantees he is going to do it. Purgatory is all about faith in Christ and his cleansing. But the fact is that sanctification is a process which at least in part cleanses us from sin. It takes time just as a broken leg takes time to heal and so the best possibility to me seems to be purgatory to resolve this HUGE problem that protestants ignore. It's an elephant in the rome with imputed righteousness.

[thessalonian]

As for your rendition of 1 Cor 3:15 it's a pretty weak and watered down one. "we will be saved but AS IF THROUGH FIRE" I think hits the nail on the head. I know how bad protestants hate suffering and can see no good in it, but it does bring about sanctification through faith in Jesus Christ bearing up to the pain of suffering. No, not all sanctification is pain. We as Catholics pray daily offering up our prayers, works, joys, and sufferings to God because these all have a place in our sanctification. And I have never heard anyone say that purgatory is all suffering. It's not hell after all.

[thessalonian]

15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

NASB
15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, [b]yet so as through fire. [/b]

DR
If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, [b]yet so as by fire. [/b]

KJV

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; [b]yet so as by fire[/b]

Young's literal
if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, [b]but so as through fire[/b]

I know the mushed down version is more appealing to those who don't see any value in suffering.

[thessalonian]

Bottom line either YOU ARE completely PURE completely HOLY completely PERFECT at this instant or there has to be no possibility of a bus running over you or a meteor falling on you head or a heart attack happening until you are, or there has to be a purification between death and heaven. Imputed righteousness does not deal with this.

[Paddington]

Thessalonian,

Unfortunately, I'm pretty indifferent to what you said. This is not my debate. I pitched in. That's all. Most Protestants go on believing that their sinful nature is dead at death. Apparently so do the Eastern Orthodox. I guess they call it a doctrine and stop thinking about it.

I want to be on the record that I have never heard anybody say that Purgatory is 100% suffering. Maybe I gave that impression. If I did, then I apologize. What I've heard is that the smallest pain in Purgatory is greater than the largest pain on earth and I've heard something about the "misty-rain section" of Purgatory from a heavily disputed Catholic source. It would be good if somebody posted something concrete about the non-painful side of Purgatory.

I find it very regrettable that you said, "I know how bad protestants don't hate, appreciate suffering and can see no good in it,..." because that is not true.

I Corinthians 3 obviously has subtle differences across translations and it is good that you pointed that out. Of course, now what we really need is a perfect Greek exegesis to give the final say. Maybe you or somebody will come up with it. You added something else unnecessary, "I know the mushed down version is more appealing to those who don't see any value in suffering."
There is no Holy Bible in existence that does not prominently teach suffering as part of following Christ.

Paddington

[LouisvilleFan]

Good points Paddington. The only concrete thing that can be said about purgatory is summed up in four short paragraphs of the Catechism. There isn't much. Everything else is imagery that helps some people with the concept of purgatory, but for example, it is not part of our faith that the smallest pain in purgatory is worse than the greatest pain on earth. That isn't a doctrine. Frankly, I think that borders on heresy. There are many pains on earth that, being away from God, would be far worse than the pains we'll endure when Christ lovingly makes our bodies and souls perfect for Heaven.

Think about the pain of growing up without loving parents. Millions of people endure that pain every day, and in seeking that l0ve, they fall in l0ve with many earthly things that can never truly l0ve them back and fulfill the emptiness of their hearts. They may never know a Father's l0ve until after they die, but all people have the hope of dying in God's grace, when Christ will burn away all the attachments to things they loved in this world and heal the wounds suffered from them, and create in them a clean heart overflowing with their Father's perfect l0ve.

This hope is available to every one of us... and that's cause for rejoicing! Instead of aiming for heaven and hoping to hit purgatory, as if the Gospel is some kind of cruel dart game where your salvation depends on your own skill and ability, how about we simply live for heaven? If you do that, the joy of purgatory will be a daily experience!

Or, consider this: Who experienced a foretaste the l0ve and joy of Heaven and who suffered the pains and torments of Hell: St. Ignatius, with his flesh being torn apart by lions in the arena, or Kurt Cobain, pulling the trigger to his head in the comfort of his home with all the fame and money one could desire? Both suffered greatly, but knowing l0ve in our hearts not only makes all physical suffering endurable, but even a cause for joy. When we are strangers to l0ve, nothing brings joy and temporal blessings even magnify the emptiness in our hearts.

Edited April 4, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1491833' date='Apr 3 2008, 10:37 AM']Bottom line either YOU ARE completely PURE completely HOLY completely PERFECT at this instant or there has to be no possibility of a bus running over you or a meteor falling on you head or a heart attack happening until you are, or there has to be a purification between death and heaven. Imputed righteousness does not deal with this.[/quote]

The simple Protestant answer is "grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone." Not all Protestants would say righteousness is imputed, but all Christians believe that somehow through the mystery of God's grace we are made perfect for heaven. If you get down to the basics of Catholic teaching on this (i.e. get ride of the hellfire and brimstone writings of Middle Age saints who had horrific visions of purgatory, none of which we are expected or required to believe), Catholicism and Protestantism are not so far apart. The real difficulty, I think, is that the word "purgatory" carries a lot of baggage (it was abusive teachings about purgatory and indulgences that the "95 Theses" addressed, after all). I'll bet if you explain what purgatory is without using the p-word, you'll find many Protestants will at least concede that our belief is plausible.

Edited April 4, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[dairygirl4u2c]

one thing about purgatory that prots might disagree with, or at least the common understanding of it.

the idea of purgatory is that you are to make amends,,,, it's not forgivness but rather the temperal amending. if it's something like you get burned in fire because you cursed God's name once wihtout making amends.... that doesn't seem right, pointless.

that said, amends makes sense in the sense of sorrow, etc etc, it's a natural outcome.

they might agree with making amends as in returning something, on earth, and doing work like returning something in purgatory, but the punishment for the sake of somehting that can'tbe fixed i'd bet could be unsettling depending on how you think of it and how it is.