The Best Arguement In Favor Of Purgatory

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

First of all, there is one essential ingredient that everybody hasn't brought up yet with sanctification, and that is justification.

This is the two components with salvation.

There is no amount of sanctification that will get you into heaven, period. If there was, sign me up, I want to be on that course, well actually, no. Because there is nothing I can do to deserve heaven.

Then there is this thing called grace. Now the Catholics have this idea, grace equals sinlessness. It's not. Grace is un-warrented favour from God.

This comes from the initial part - justification. You see, if you believe in Christ's death on the cross, you are now justified in the eyes of God. Jesus died to take away the sins of God's people, it says so in Matthew and Luke and John.

John the Baptist even said, behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Every time you repent of your sins, Jesus takes more sins upon himself, as you confess your sins to him. When he takes the sins to himself, through your belief that he does, you become sinless before the eyes of God, as he now sees the sins nailed on the cross, and no more on you.

That is justification. Of course, once you are justified, if you sin again, you must repent again. Sanctification is less about sinning less, but it is a component. It is about testing your faith more and more, and becoming stronger and stronger in the lord.

On Baptism, Once you believe in Christ's death on the cross, usually, what I have found with new converts, they want to be baptized, to show their faith in God. It is an essential part, as it identifies you with the death of Christ, for we are buried with Christ for baptism, which shows death to one's own will, but total submission to God and his word, as Jesus said - he who is born again (from above) through the water and the spirit shall see the kingdom of heaven. If you have repented of your sins, and are baptized, you shall be filled with the holy spirit, which brings about sanctification .

So in the eyes of God - step one - belief = justification. Step two - commitment and turn around = sanctification over time.

Then you start your walk with God under the first step in that walk - salvation. Then there is trials for God to prove your faith, and lastly - you enter into warfare, once the devil realizes, nothing he can do can stop you from serving God with all your heart, mind, strength and soul.

I hope that explains a lot as to what Justification and sanctification means.

[dairygirl4u2c]

so, to me, you are arguing that since you are justified, there's no point in purgatory. but, as i discused in the other thread.... what about the purifying fire, what about the blows that Jesus would give to those who are saved?
the fires and blows are almost surely purgatoyr, i don't see any way around it. either you are in pain in heaven, or you are in purgatory,,,, not even necessarily a difference here, ya know. heaven's said to be perfect, so if you are not in perfection, maybe youu're not really in heaven even if kinda you are. heaven's porch, as catholics like to say. i don't see much of a difference other than tehcnialities that might not even exist.

purgatory could be only increasing in sanctification. it's not necessarily completing justification, which many say was completed at death. it's an open question.

so you don't seem to have much of a bicker with purgatory as you do with faith and works etc.

justification in catholic understanding is not a whole lot different than prot, depending on how you look at it.
they don't think you need so many works to get saved so much, they don't think you need an increasing amount of works necessarily.... though this is almost certainly the case.
the only clear thing is they say the sanctification you speak of adds to the justification. you are a participant in your salvation. to me, this is more of a techicnal difference, nothing substantial. i could see saying it's substantial cause you want to stress the work of Jesus, but to me,,, works are required in both camps, and santifiction increases,,, the only question is what it does.
the argument from catholic is that,,,, why not have participation in the process? a technical participation, cause what you lack, Jesus will comensate for, as catholics die in sin and imperfect all the time and that's acnowledged.

i mean,,, i also think it's more biblical to say you aprticipate in taht way. James 2 "not saved by faith alone" (the only place faith alone is mentioned in the bible ironically), "by works we are justified".
the lambs and the goats in matthew.
Romans, 2, i believe.... where those who perserve in good works get salvaiton and those who don't damnation.
now, surely you can find arguments against these.... it depends on how reconcile the apparent discrepancies. (if you've ever noticed James talks about Abraham justified by works, and Paul talks about him justified by faith.... apparent discrepancy depending on how reconciled) most things Jesus himself says sounds more cahtolic.... many things paul says sounds more protestant... obviously they are not both wrong,,, but it's something to think about reconciling what Paul said with what Jesus said, not the other way around.

if you want to get into biblcal and theological talks on this, you've come to the right website.
hopefully you will keep an open mind.

Edited April 5, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

given that it depends on how you reconcile passages etc, and not necessarily unquestionably clear either way... i'd argue that you should attack the CC by finding contradictions in teaching.... as i posit there would almost surely be some if it's not God's church as claimed, in 2000 years of teaching.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1492516' date='Apr 4 2008, 02:06 PM']the idea of purgatory is that you are to make amends,,,, it's not forgivness but rather the temperal amending. if it's something like you get burned in fire because you cursed God's name once wihtout making amends.... that doesn't seem right, pointless.[/quote]

Show me that in the Cathechism.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492863' date='Apr 5 2008, 12:52 AM']Then there is this thing called grace. Now the Catholics have this idea, grace equals sinlessness. It's not. Grace is un-warrented favour from God.[/quote]

Aaaand show us that in the [url="http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=grace&xsubmit=Search&s=SS"]Catechism[/url] ;-)

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1493174' date='Apr 5 2008, 06:07 PM']Aaaand show us that in the [url="http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=grace&xsubmit=Search&s=SS"]Catechism[/url] ;-)[/quote]

Well, I always thought that Catholics consider Mary sinless, because she was full of grace. Maybe I misunderstood the thought processes, so if I have, please forgive me.

[Paddington]

The amends side of Purgatory has me very interested too. I used to kinda assume that Catholics believed that. Where I heard it was from Ancient Greek Philosophy about Purgatory. I ran it by a veteran priest once and he basically directed me away from the idea.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1493321' date='Apr 5 2008, 11:32 PM']Well, I always thought that Catholics consider Mary sinless, because she was full of grace. Maybe I misunderstood the thought processes, so if I have, please forgive me.[/quote]

I see what you're saying. We do believe Mary is sinless and one of the verses used to back that is Gabriel describing Mary as "full of grace" in his greeting to her. And we agree on what you say about grace: it is unwarranted favor from God. To reconcile this, you need to consider the Immaculate Conception. At the moment of Mary's conception, God granted her the grace to be free from all sin. Being a single cell at that moment, she obviously didn't merit this freedom from sin, and being filled with grace, her entire life is a pure testimony to the l0ve of God (i.e. her good works were the pure fruit of grace, not her own will). So she was sinless because of God's grace, but she didn't deserve it any more than the rest of us.

The link I gave (if you click on Catechism in my previous post) is a search for the word "grace" in the Catechism and there you'll find more specifics about the various kinds of grace, like sacramental grace, the grace of charism (like a charism of celibacy), and graces received through more everyday experiences. Catholics are all about some grace

Edited April 6, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[thessalonian]

Jesus is,

You distort. No grace does not mean sinnlessness. Grace is the means God uses to actually wash and cleans our sins away from us. It is the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. That power can cleanse us from sin but it can also keep us from sinning. Don't you attritube some of the sins you don't committ to God's power working in your life? Paul says "you must not sin" but does he attibute it to your own power not to sin? No. God gives us the grace to sin. Grace is not just God being nice and forgetting about sin. It is him actively working in our lives to help us overcome our human fraility.

The reason that justification (by the protestant definition) has not brought up is because we agree that forgiveness of sin comes first. One becomes "saved" first before there is any sanctification. Those in purgatory are not justified (by the protestant definition) but sanctified (by both of our definitions). You really should not come here thinking you understand Catholicism and can make substantial arguements against it because you don't and you can't. Ask and learn.

Blessings

[thessalonian]

JesusIS,

By the way, your method of weasiling out of the question at hand is typical. You slip in that sanctification is a process but don't ever answer how that process is guaranteed to be completed by the end of life. Nor do you answer the question of whether or not sanctification has to be completed to enter in to heaven. We agree that not being sanctified does not mean one is not saved.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't think he's really interested in conversing,,,, more like accusing the CC of contempt, and stating his position, and then leaving and not responding to anyone else.

definitely not personally responsible.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1494102' date='Apr 7 2008, 08:29 AM']JesusIS,

By the way, your method of weasiling out of the question at hand is typical. You slip in that sanctification is a process but don't ever answer how that process is guaranteed to be completed by the end of life. Nor do you answer the question of whether or not sanctification has to be completed to enter in to heaven. We agree that not being sanctified does not mean one is not saved.[/quote]

I have one question then.

How much time in Purgatory will I have to go through?

[KnightofChrist]

Unknown, time is an earthly bound it does not exist as we know it in the afterlife.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495225' date='Apr 8 2008, 09:10 PM']I have one question then.

How much time in Purgatory will I have to go through?[/quote]

Remind me not to waste time on a good faith effort in answering this guy's questions in the future.

[CatherineM]

I guess I like the idea of purgatory, because the alternative scares me. I'm not sure I can ever live the life I need to to go straight to heaven.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1495492' date='Apr 9 2008, 10:11 AM']I guess I like the idea of purgatory, because the alternative scares me. I'm not sure I can ever live the life I need to to go straight to heaven.[/quote]

I heard you Catherine.

It was that fear that made me break down before God myself, and ask him to forgive me, and I asked Jesus Christ to take the reigns.

Because when you do the will of the father and listen and obey the words of the son, you can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

I believe in God's Grace, and that Jesus Christ has already received the punishment that was reserved for me when I die. I can't stop sinning myself. But I trust in Jesus death on the Cross, and I continually repent. Every time I think of my sins, I start crying and asking God again and again, please forgive me. And each time, I know God is just and faithful to forgive me and wash me cleaner than snow. My sins are not snow covered mushy mud pie, my sins are mushy mud pie turned into diamonds after I ask for forgiveness, because that is God's grace.

Making it to heaven is nothing about what we can do, but all what God has done, and is doing, and will continue to do.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1495252' date='Apr 8 2008, 08:58 PM']Unknown, time is an earthly bound it does not exist as we know it in the afterlife.[/quote]

Good answer.

Unknown, because there is no time. So - if there is no time, there is no need for purification. Making it to heaven isn't performance based. Your performance on earth is going to be because you have faith in God's grace, but God's grace is not dependent on your performance on earth. There is no time in Purgatory, because there is no time in heaven. You have to be 'instantly' purified from you sins. I have the faith that will happen when I die. God will 'instantly' welcome me into his presence, because past, present, and future are in him.

In fact, I believe God is heaven. Heaven isn't where God is, because that would me there are places that God doesn't fill, if he exists in heaven. So if we die, we go to him instantly, and he determines where we go depending on our faith. That is what it means, one life and then the judgement.

I choose the simple in my faith. I trust God will forgive my sins, and that I will be in heaven once he calls me back, be it dying, or after he comes back near the end of the tribulation.