Transgendered People

[BeenaBobba]

I know that the Catholic Church is against sex changes, but I've always been confused about how I should I refer to transsexuals. For example, if a female-to-male transsexual preferred to be referred to by male pronouns, would you use he/him or she/her when referring to this person?

I'm sure many of you have heard about Thomas Beatie, the pregnant "man." I've read that many doctors have refused to treat and moniter Thomas' pregnancy. If you were an OBGYN, what would you do?

[rkwright]

I'm not in the medical profession... but I have read an interesting case in the legal profession on this subject...

A transgendered worker (male who had operations, some not all, to be a woman) felt like he was entitled to use the same restroom as women. This obviously presented problems to the women in the workplace and the women actually threatened a quasi strike if he was allowed to use the women's restrooms. The company told him he would have to use the men's restrooms, which he refused, the company fired him. He claimed sex discrimination. Luckly the Court can back and stated that sex discrimination can only be based on what you actually are, not what you think you are. Businesses are not required to have special bathrooms for people who think they are X. The court referred to the plaintiff as a he in the opinion, since that is what he is physically.

[CatherineM]

I try to take people where they are without judging. If someone wants me to call them Shirley eventhough they have a beard, I'm going to call them Shirley. It is different when it comes to legal things like bathrooms, or which side of the jail they should be put on. Then I think you have to base it on the plumbing as it is, not the way it was originally, or the way they hope it will be sometime in the future.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

I would refer to them as what they actually are, not what they want to be. So I would call Thomas a 'she'. Men can't have babies, that's a biological. She wants the benefits of both genders, and that is just impossible.

[Lena]

I would go by the pronoun they consider themselves to be.

[Kitty]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1492793' date='Apr 4 2008, 09:12 PM']I would refer to them as what they actually are, not what they want to be. So I would call Thomas a 'she'. Men can't have babies, that's a biological. She wants the benefits of both genders, and that is just impossible.[/quote]

Yes, but if they clearly want to be called a specific gender, then deliberately doing the opposite is rude.

I had a transsexual friend last semester. She used to be male, but then she became female (thought I'm not sure if he had a sex change operation.) She was nice. Even though she had a male brain and perhaps male anatomy, I still called her "she".

[jeffpugh]

There's the crux of it: the brain. No matter how many horomones are pumped into the body to change the gender, males will always think like males and females will always think like females. It's the difference between getting items from a closet (female) and drawers (male)... (anyone know that analogy? )

[Galloglasses]

Oh God, it shouldn't happen in the first place, but i'll share my opinion.

If a transexual was talking to me I'd refer to the sex they 'changed' themselves too, if only to avoid a scene, (anyone know if this is lieing or not?)

Funny story, in Britain for a while there, the minister for education bought into the feministic notion that your sex, (and sexuality), was a case of nuture not nature, and, so as to lessen the violent tendencies in the males, (lets be real here, Males tend to be alot more violent or rowdy then girls are, look at a school yard), he made it so that in creches and playschools that boys should not be allowed to play with toy guns, toy soldiers and other 'boyish things. Even going so far as to make the boys play with dolls and the ilk. Needless to say, the younger you are, the more extreme and pure you are in your thoughts and beleifs. The boys, being boys, throughout the whole of Britain went on the toddler equivilent of a strike. They absolutely refused to do what their minders asked or told them to do, refused to play with the dolls and refused to 'play along' with the Government's ideas for education. This was unorganised and widespread, it just happened. How can this not be interpreted as a natural reaction?

If your sex, (not gender), is determined by your biology, as the case mentioned above implies, how can you have any right to say differently then what you have naturally been ordained as being? (this is the secular arguement, the Religious arguement is, 'What right do you have to change what God set you as being?'), so if you are naturally a man or a woman, regardless of what you 'want' to be, what right do you have to lie to yourself and to the world?

FYI: That case happened a few months ago, the education minister was forced to change his ideas for preschool education.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' post='1492747' date='Apr 4 2008, 08:07 PM']I know that the Catholic Church is against sex changes, but I've always been confused about how I should I refer to transsexuals. For example, if a female-to-male transsexual preferred to be referred to by male pronouns, would you use he/him or she/her when referring to this person?

I'm sure many of you have heard about Thomas Beatie, the pregnant "man." I've read that many doctors have refused to treat and moniter Thomas' pregnancy. If you were an OBGYN, what would you do?[/quote]

If I were an OBGYN I would treat and moniter the pregnancy... It's still a kid and deserves to be born. Why punish the innocent human being for its mother's mistakes?

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1492868' date='Apr 5 2008, 12:21 AM']Yes, but if they clearly want to be called a specific gender, then deliberately doing the opposite is rude.

I had a transsexual friend last semester. She used to be male, but then she became female (thought I'm not sure if he had a sex change operation.) She was nice. Even though she had a male brain and perhaps male anatomy, I still called her "she".[/quote]

Why? Calling them what they really are is rude? If someone desperately wanted to be some animal, I dunno like a horse or something, would you refer to them as such?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1492994' date='Apr 5 2008, 03:29 PM']Why? Calling them what they really are is rude? If someone desperately wanted to be some animal, I dunno like a horse or something, would you refer to them as such?[/quote]

how old are they?

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1492995' date='Apr 5 2008, 03:33 PM']how old are they?[/quote]

I don't know. I don't really actually know anyone like that, I'm just presenting an example.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1492998' date='Apr 5 2008, 03:37 PM']I don't know. I don't really actually know anyone like that, I'm just presenting an example.[/quote]

I know... I was just saying that it'd be ok for little kids to pretend to be animals.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

Oh, well of course there's nothing wrong with that I would pretend-treat a little kid like a horse if that's what they really wanted to be, but they would grow bored of it in a few hours at the most, so it doesn't really apply.

[kujo]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1492755' date='Apr 4 2008, 09:14 PM']I'm not in the medical profession... but I have read an interesting case in the legal profession on this subject...

A transgendered worker (male who had operations, some not all, to be a woman) felt like he was entitled to use the same restroom as women. This obviously presented problems to the women in the workplace and the women actually threatened a quasi strike if he was allowed to use the women's restrooms. The company told him he would have to use the men's restrooms, which he refused, the company fired him. He claimed sex discrimination. Luckly the Court can back and stated that sex discrimination can only be based on what you actually are, not what you think you are. Businesses are not required to have special bathrooms for people who think they are X. The court referred to the plaintiff as a he in the opinion, since that is what he is physically.[/quote]

Very interesting court case. I was wondering if I could get the case name so I can look it up on WestLaw.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1492768' date='Apr 4 2008, 09:34 PM']I try to take people where they are without judging. If someone wants me to call them Shirley eventhough they have a beard, I'm going to call them Shirley. It is different when it comes to legal things like bathrooms, or which side of the jail they should be put on. Then I think you have to base it on the plumbing as it is, not the way it was originally, or the way they hope it will be sometime in the future.[/quote]

Word.

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1492987' date='Apr 5 2008, 03:45 PM']If I were an OBGYN I would treat and moniter the pregnancy... It's still a kid and deserves to be born. Why punish the innocent human being for its mother's mistakes?[/quote]

Word.

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1492994' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:29 PM']Why? Calling them what they really are is rude? If someone desperately wanted to be some animal, I dunno like a horse or something, would you refer to them as such?[/quote]

Who cares? Does calling a "he" a "she" affect your soul? Does it take you away from God? Probably not. Than why be obstinate and stubborn. You are more likely to successfully minister to someone with an understanding smile than with a condescending-scowl.

Or, in other words, a spoonful of sugar...

[Dismas]

My cat is still a "he" even though he was fixed. Same rule applies. If they don't like it, I might settle for "it", provided they are actually mutilated beyond the ability to normally procreate.

[BeenaBobba]

I'm still confused about how to refer to transsexuals. Honestly, I usually try to avoid using pronouns in reference to them. That's probably a cop-out on my part, but I wish the Church would tell us what to do on this.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1492987' date='Apr 5 2008, 03:45 PM']If I were an OBGYN I would treat and moniter the pregnancy... It's still a kid and deserves to be born. Why punish the innocent human being for its mother's mistakes?[/quote]

I agree.

[Socrates]

The whole "transgendered" phenomenon, and the p.c. movement to push it as "normal" is one of the most disgusting perversions of our modern society.

Surgery of this kind and acompanying "hormone treatments" do not truly change one's sex - they merely mutilate one's body.
A man cannot actually become a woman, nor vice versa.

I've seen a modern edition of the 1950s works of famous "transsexual" travel writer James (now "Jan") Morris, (picked it up before realizing the author was "trans") and the cover and intro consistantly piously referred to the author as "she," even when referring to this man's pre-op exploits (during which "she" fathered about 10 children with "her" wife, now "her" "life-partner").

Sorry, but women do not father children with their wives, and men do not get pregnant.
Calling oneself a man or woman does not make them one, anymore than if I insisted that I was a horse, it would make me a horse.

I refuse to follow politically-correct terminology when referring to these misfortunate persons, however "polite" it may be. Language (and behavior) should reflect actual reality, not cater to lies and delusions.
"Transsexualism" is a mental illness, and should be treated as such.
It should not be regarded as a legitimate "lifestyle" demanding acceptance and "rights" from the rest of society.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Socrates

[kujo]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1493797' date='Apr 6 2008, 04:11 PM']I refuse to follow politically-correct terminology when referring to these misfortunate persons, however "polite" it may be. Language (and behavior) should reflect actual reality, not cater to lies and delusions.

It should not be regarded as a legitimate "lifestyle" demanding acceptance and "rights" from the rest of society.[/quote]

I see your point here, Soc. But I don't believe in making political statements out of my communications with people. If asked, I will surely give my opinion (and, if ya'll ever got to know me personally, you'd realize how forthright and opinionated I really am). But, out of respect for that person's humanity and for their sensitivities, I wouldn't "make a scene."

And transexuals deserve the same basic human rights that everyone else does because they are humans. No more, no less.