Transgendered People

[Socrates]

[quote name='kujo' post='1493804' date='Apr 6 2008, 02:17 PM']I see your point here, Soc. But I don't believe in making political statements out of my communications with people. If asked, I will surely give my opinion (and, if ya'll ever got to know me personally, you'd realize how forthright and opinionated I really am). But, out of respect for that person's humanity and for their sensitivities, I wouldn't "make a scene."[/quote]
I see the whole movement insisting that people be referred to by whatever gender they declare themselves, regardless of biological reality, to be using language to make a political statement.
(The more extreme adherents insisting that not even an operation is necessary - if a man says he's a woman, then "she's" a woman and is to be reffered to as such.)
Prudence may dictate not "making a scene" in certain circumstances, but, for instance, if I'm writing regarding the "transexual" pregnant woman, I won't refer to her by male pronouns, and call her a "pregnant man" as the media does.

[quote]And transexuals deserve the same basic human rights that everyone else does because they are humans. No more, no less.[/quote]
They deserve the same rights as other human beings, but their disorder deserves no "rights." They have no right to their own public bathrooms, nor to use whatever public restroom they choose, nor that health plans be legally required to cover the costs of their surgeries and other procedures, etc. (All of these things they have demanded.)

If you think this is not a highly politicized movement, you are mistaken.

[kujo]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1493823' date='Apr 6 2008, 04:35 PM']I see the whole movement insisting that people be referred to by whatever gender they declare themselves, regardless of biological reality, to be using language to make a political statement.
(The more extreme adherents insisting that not even an operation is necessary - if a man says he's a woman, then "she's" a woman and is to be reffered to as such.)
Prudence may dictate not "making a scene" in certain circumstances, but, for instance, if I'm writing regarding the "transexual" pregnant woman, I won't refer to her by male pronouns, and call her a "pregnant man" as the media does.
They deserve the same rights as other human beings, but their disorder deserves no "rights." They have no right to their own public bathrooms, nor to use whatever public restroom they choose, nor that health plans be legally required to cover the costs of their surgeries and other procedures, etc. (All of these things they have demanded.)

If you think this is not a highly politicized movement, you are mistaken.[/quote]

We are in complete agreement, Soc. I don't view my use of language as a political statement, just an attempt to be polite and not ruffle feathers unnecessarily.

But I agree...I don't think we need to start having Sheman or Hewoman bathrooms. But, at the same time, if you look like a dude, just go to the dude's bathroom, go into a stall, and take care of business. If you look like a chick, go into the chick's bathroom. If you don't, don't be stupid...don't make a scene! Just go where your parts tell you to go.

[cmotherofpirl]

Mutilating your breasts and growing a beard doesn't make you a man, it makes you a woman with seriously grave issues. Any doctor who would operate on people with such issues should have his license revoked and his head examined. Your feelings do not define your gender, because feelings are transient in nature. Accepting what God made you is an act of courage for all of us.

[kenrockthefirst]

FWIW, "gender" is a social construct, based in part on one's sex. The words mean different things and are not in fact interchangeable, although "gender" is often used as the "polite" term for "sex."

Because we live in a Fallen world, sometimes there are physical problems as regards one's sex, i.e. improperly developed genitalia, hormonal imbalances, etc. How should we treat people with physiological issues with regard to their sex, and hence the gender role they assume? Does it come down to chromosomes? How invasive are we willing to be?

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
does anyone have any statistics on how many people have had surgeries or hormone treatment to 'switch' sexes, and then decided to 'switch' back?

[Lena]

Those kind of stats would be interesting to see. I'm interested in the "why" of the matter... what causes someone to be transgendered? I found some interesting info. on it: [mod]Link removed. --Era Might[/mod]

[CatherineM]

There are many indeterminate sex babies that used to be operated on at an early age to "fix" the problem. They sometimes have surgery to go back when they get older. I had a client who was born male, had something horrible happen at circumcision, and the doctors told his parents that changing him to a female would be best. It didn't work out that way. I saw a program on HBO years ago about sex re-assignment surgery, and they had a guy on there who was gay, and so upset by being gay that he talked them into doing a sex change on him. He changed his mind too late. He was just so broken. He was trying to talk the government into paying to have him reconstructed under the same medical act that reconstructs guys who have been injured in war or accidents. It just shows how damaging sexual dysfunctions can be in people's lives.

[Lena]

Going along with what Catherine said.....anyone read "Middlesex" by Jeffrey Eugenides? It is a personal (fictional) account of an intersexed man/woman. A very different kind of book to read, it was really sad to see the effects of being born that way and then having to choose what gender to identify as.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1494149' date='Apr 7 2008, 10:46 AM']It just shows how damaging sexual dysfunctions can be in people's lives.[/quote]
This is the point, IMHO. Not political correctness or whatever, but people trying to figure out what the rest of us are trying to figure out: who am I, where am I going, what's my purpose in life?

[kujo]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1494149' date='Apr 7 2008, 12:46 PM']It just shows how damaging sexual dysfunctions can be in people's lives.[/quote]

Exactly. It's not about being politically correct, or resisting the liberal agenda; rather, it's about being sensitive to the needs and sensitivities of another human being. I find that dealing with this people is similar to dealing with homosexuals--we must approach them with the love that God has for all of His children and respect them as such. We should gently guide them, when given the opportunity, and in appropriate times and situations, towards penitence and trust in God to help them carry their heavy burden. I don't think we should do the hellfire and brimstone method of ministry where you convict someone in hopes that their guilt will force a conversion. I just don't find that method to be particularly effective.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1494149' date='Apr 7 2008, 05:46 PM']There are many indeterminate sex babies that used to be operated on at an early age to "fix" the problem. They sometimes have surgery to go back when they get older.[/quote]

Yes. One of my mum's colleagues delivered such a baby. It was decided that it would be easiest to make the child female. I wonder what happened to the baby when she grew up. Would performing corrective surgery on the genitalia be enough to make her look, act, and feel female?

[CatherineM]

My client was given female hormones when he approached puberty, and was told that they were special vitamins. He didn't even find out he had been born male until he was off at college. It permanently damaged his relationship with his parents, who thought they were doing what was best for him, what the doctor's told them was best. He always felt out of place, got into a lot of acting out behaviour, and didn't know why. He's now on male hormone therapy, and has had some type of reconstructive surgery. He came to me to get his birth certificate changed, and to arrange for a more specialized attorney to sue the doctors.

[Socrates]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1494132' date='Apr 7 2008, 10:12 AM']FWIW, "gender" is a social construct, based in part on one's sex. The words mean different things and are not in fact interchangeable, although "gender" is often used as the "polite" term for "sex."

Because we live in a Fallen world, sometimes there are physical problems as regards one's sex, i.e. improperly developed genitalia, hormonal imbalances, etc. How should we treat people with physiological issues with regard to their sex, and hence the gender role they assume? Does it come down to chromosomes? How invasive are we willing to be?[/quote]
[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1494181' date='Apr 7 2008, 11:55 AM']This is the point, IMHO. Not political correctness or whatever, but people trying to figure out what the rest of us are trying to figure out: who am I, where am I going, what's my purpose in life?[/quote]
Sorry, but this "gender is a social construct" talk is just nonsensical leftist academia-babble used to promote deviant and disordered "lifestyles."
Strictly, speaking "gender" is a term referring to language, but a person's "gender," in the sense of whether one is a man or woman, is not some "social construct" separate from one's actual sex.
The "gender is a social construct" crowd claim that sex roles are completely artificial and arbitrary, and whether one lives as a man, woman, or something else should have nothing to do with biological sex.
This warped social liberalism has given us such absurdities as "male lesbians."

This is contrary to man's nature as created by God:
"And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: [b]male and female he created them[/b]." (Gen. 1:27)

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1494112' date='Apr 7 2008, 09:21 AM']Mutilating your breasts and growing a beard doesn't make you a man, it makes you a woman with seriously grave issues. Any doctor who would operate on people with such issues should have his license revoked and his head examined. Your feelings do not define your gender, because feelings are transient in nature. Accepting what God made you is an act of courage for all of us.[/quote]
Amen!

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1494594' date='Apr 7 2008, 08:59 PM']Sorry, but this "gender is a social construct" talk is just nonsensical leftist academia-babble used to promote deviant and disordered "lifestyles."
Strictly, speaking "gender" is a term referring to language, but a person's "gender," in the sense of whether one is a man or woman, is not some "social construct" separate from one's actual sex.
The "gender is a social construct" crowd claim that sex roles are completely artificial and arbitrary, and whether one lives as a man, woman, or something else should have nothing to do with biological sex.
This warped social liberalism has given us such absurdities as "male lesbians."

This is contrary to man's nature as created by God:
"And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: [b]male and female he created them[/b]." (Gen. 1:27)
Amen![/quote]
What I wrote was: "'gender' is a social construct, based in part on one's sex."

Notice the "based [i]in part[/i] on one's sex" clause? I didn't say that "gender" could mean whatever we want it to mean. But "gender" is not the same as "sex." Sex is a physical characteristic; gender is a mental / psychological characteristic. When we teach children that "boy's don't cry," that has nothing to do with sex but with a gender characteristic we associate with maleness, i.e. not being "weak." However, not being prone to crying has nothing to do with having a penis, having body hair, deep voice, etc.

[Socrates]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1494811' date='Apr 8 2008, 07:42 AM']What I wrote was: "'gender' is a social construct, based in part on one's sex."

Notice the "based [i]in part[/i] on one's sex" clause? I didn't say that "gender" could mean whatever we want it to mean. But "gender" is not the same as "sex." Sex is a physical characteristic; gender is a mental / psychological characteristic. When we teach children that "boy's don't cry," that has nothing to do with sex but with a gender characteristic we associate with maleness, i.e. not being "weak." However, not being prone to crying has nothing to do with having a penis, having body hair, deep voice, etc.[/quote]
Still, that's a "buzz-phrase" that screams "liberal social-sexual agenda."
Are you suggesting that a person's "gender" can be different from his or her sex? That a male can be a "she" or a female a "he"?

I also don't at all buy the idea common in liberal circles that any characteristics beyond one's physical sexual characteristics are mere "social constructs" which have no inherent relation to one's sex - top being a man or woman.
While it's true than external details may vary (Scotsmen and their kilts, etc.), the essence of manliness or womanliness are remarkably constant.
I know of no culture or society in the world (other than perhaps decadent modern liberalism) in which being a weakling or crybaby is seen as befitting or proper to a man.
Bravery, honor, physical and emotional strength, and other "warrior" qualities are universally admired in men, and seen as befitting a real man.
And women's roles are usually related to being wives and mothers.

Being a man involves much more than a penis, and being a woman much more than having a womb, and that is not just a "social construct," but a reflection of our divinely-created human nature.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' post='1492747' date='Apr 4 2008, 07:07 PM']I know that the Catholic Church is against sex changes, but I've always been confused about how I should I refer to transsexuals. For example, if a female-to-male transsexual preferred to be referred to by male pronouns, would you use he/him or she/her when referring to this person?

I'm sure many of you have heard about Thomas Beatie, the pregnant "man." I've read that many doctors have refused to treat and moniter Thomas' pregnancy. If you were an OBGYN, what would you do?[/quote]

This shouldn't be confusing. Tracy Thomas Beattie is a woman. Period. The fact that she had her breasts surgically removed (ouch!) and took male hormones for years so that she now has body hair...this doesn't make her a man. There is no surgery for changing DNA and chromosones.

TTB is also a liar, like most transgenders and transsexuals. TTB claims to have "a small penis" and that she can have sexual intercourse with her partner with this. Um, testosterone injections will NOT make a person grow. a. penis. This is bosh to make the public think she has achieved her goal of completely changing genders.

I hope that solid-minded people will not get on the PC bandwagon with this. A person born a male is a man, a person born a female is a woman. Period. Sex changes mean nothing. That's no different that getting a nose job or breast enhancement or braces. They are only changing their exterior. We should step up in respect for God's creation and refer to these people by their REAL gender no matter how they look on the outside, no matter what special exceptions the law has made for them, and no matter what the media refers to them as.

Frankly, these people are mentally ill and we should be heart-broken that they are ruining their lives and not getting the help they so desperately need.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1492793' date='Apr 4 2008, 08:12 PM']I would refer to them as what they actually are, not what they want to be. So I would call Thomas a 'she'. Men can't have babies, that's a biological. She wants the benefits of both genders, and that is just impossible.[/quote]

Exactly!

I must say, Tracy Thomas Beattie is one of THE most confused (and confusing) transgendered cases I have ever heard of. That's because of the pregnancy issue. Most transgendered people have strict boundries for themselves which don't include going back and forth between genders. As mentally ill as I know them to be, THEY have pretty clear ideas about which gender they want to be. Those who are male and want to be female don't generally have a desire to make a woman pregnant. Those who are female and want to be male don't generally have a desire to procreate. Like all mental illnesses where the sufferer is delusional, they are firmly grounded in their delusion. That is why TTB is so different. She wants EVERYTHING of BOTH genders. She is a woman with a full female reproductive system but she claims to have a penis (due to testosterone injections...but I strongly disbelieve this), she wants to have a baby but she doesn't want breasts, she wants to have maternal feelings but she wants a beard and a deep voice. TTB's illness is very intense. Very, very bizarre. More bizarre than the other cases of the same gender disorder. Just sad.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1492980' date='Apr 5 2008, 01:20 PM']There's the crux of it: the brain. No matter how many horomones are pumped into the body to change the gender, males will always think like males and females will always think like females. It's the difference between getting items from a closet (female) and drawers (male)... (anyone know that analogy? )[/quote]

Sorry, I don't believe for a second that it's the brain. It's DNA and chromosomes and natural hormones. The brain is not a living entity unto itself. The brain is stimulated by other factors. This is why we have "male brains" and "female brains". Brains do not have genders. Brains are stimulated by those things...chromosomes, hormones...that make us whatever gender we are born as. Thus, a man who transgenders to woman may still have "a male brain" but that is because he can't change his chromosomes and DNA.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1495270' date='Apr 8 2008, 09:34 PM']Are you suggesting that a person's "gender" can be different from his or her sex? That a male can be a "she" or a female a "he"?[/quote]
What I'm saying is that a person's gender is [i]informed[/i] by his or her sex, and that while certain gender characteristics may be widely accepted they are not absolute. In Middle Eastern societies, for example, men kiss each other in greeting, while in the US that would be considered "girlie." I doubt, however, that a Middle Eastern man would shy from defending his honor if anyone suggested that [i]he[/i] was "girlie" because he kissed another man in greeting.

What I'm also saying is that we're [i]all[/i] broken as a result of the Fall, each in our individual ways, and agree that gender confusion vis-a-vis one's sex is a Bad Thing and harmful to the person experiencing it.

[CatherineM]

Madame-what that woman/man whatever meant by having a penis, is that when a biological female takes certain hormones, it causes her clitoris to enlarge. Basically replicating what happens in vitro. All fetuses start out with mainly female characteristics, and then the hormones kick in, and males develop penises. In these women, they have a surgery to release the enlarged clitoris, and I'm told that it gets to be the size of a small penis. Thankfully, I've never actually seen evidence of it. I had some pretty diverse clients at one time.