Charismatic Prayer Meeting

[inperpetuity]

Between 1992 and 1998 I tried going to several charismatic prayer meetings and so called "charismatic masses". I never experienced anything that moved me toward a greater love for the Faith or a greater knowledge of or deeper union with Our Lord Jesus Christ. All these events were presided over by priests. I later learned that the so called "charismatic movement" had its beginnings in the protestant sects in the 1960s. As for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it is calvary. Our Lady and St. John were not waving their hands and singing songs to the tunes of tamborines and guitars while Our Lord Jesus Christ was suffering a most ignominious and cruel death for our eternal salvation. It's all about Him, not us. For me everything is contained therein. God Bless. Lisa

[LouisvilleFan]

The modern Charismatic Renewal actually dates back to about 1905 at a prayer meeting in Kansas and it spread from there through Protestant churches and eventually to the Catholic Church in the 60s and 70s.

At any rate, nothing wrong with choosing to avoid the Charismatic movement, but there's also nothing wrong with choosing to participate in it either. Many of our bishops and cardinals are charismatics and JPII consistently spoke favorably of the movement.

Of course, Our Lady would not have been speaking in tongues and waving tambourines at Calvary, both because it would be completely inappropriate (and Charismatic should agree with that) and because the Crucifixion was pre-Pentecost. I think a joy-filled charismatic experience is completely appropriate for celebrating the Resurrection and Ascension.

Edited May 5, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[scardella]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1519853' date='May 5 2008, 07:40 PM']Our Lady would not have been speaking in tongues and waving tambourines at Calvary, both because it would be completely inappropriate (and Charismatic should agree with that) and because the Crucifixion was pre-Pentecost. I think a joy-filled charismatic experience is completely appropriate for celebrating the [b]Resurrection and Ascension.[/b][/quote]

Not to mention Pentecost!

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1519853' date='May 5 2008, 07:40 PM']The modern Charismatic Renewal actually dates back to about 1905 at a prayer meeting in Kansas and it spread from there through Protestant churches and eventually to the Catholic Church in the 60s and 70s.[/quote]

The charismatic movement started in 1901 in Kansas and it was still a Protestant prayer meeting. And from there, came Pentecostalism. At least, that is what my research has told me. And at the time it started those that were apart of it (Pentecostals) believed that one must experience those supposed spiritual gifts to truly be a Christian/get to heaven.

I converted from Pentecostalism, and I did not like what I was seeing in the Pentecostal church. I have stayed away from the modern "charismatic movement" with in the church (and I mean, like the meetings and worship services and such) probably because of that and because of it's history as well - coming from the Pentecostal Church. The history of it has always troubled me while I have been Catholic. The phrases Pentecostals use to describe supposed spiritual gifts are the same Catholics use now to describe the gifts. The idea of "praise and worship meetings" - just singing contemporary hymns, praying, and supposedly receiving gifts from the HS - is [i]exactly[/i] like a Pentecostal Sunday service. I have seen some groups that have the Eucharist there and it is like a very active - moving, swaying, louder music - type of adoration, but then there are other groups that do these meetings without the Eucharist and it is just like a Pentecostal service to me as just an on-looker. It just seems to be very much adopted from the Pentecostal Church except that belief that the gifts are essential.

To all of those that are involved in the modern "charismatic movement" and probably know far more about it then I do: What has the Church said, if anything, on the history of the modern charismatic movement? And, why has this sudden movement only truly awoken and made it's stamp as a "movement" in the last fifty years or so with in the Church? Am I wrong in this last assumption? I am truly inquisitive about this. Any response would be welcome.

[Noel's angel]

Mass = Last Supper, not Pentecost.

[Deb]

The first Catholic Charismatic Prayer meeting would have to have been the Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the Apostles.

During the early church, charisms were considered a normal part of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is only during more modern times that this has been ignored.

I belong to a Charismatic Catholic Church and I will say that I see more reverence for the mass and the Eucharist than I see at some other traditional churches.

Pope John Paul II was a great supporter of the new evangelization and charismatic renewal of the Catholic Church. I will give you a link to one of his addresses to the ICCRO Council. If you go through his years of addresses and writings, you will find many references to the Charismatic movement. It started with the Catholic Church, people just forgot what it was.



[url="http://www.garg.com/ccc/articles/John_Paul/John_Paul_001.html"]http://www.garg.com/ccc/articles/John_Paul...n_Paul_001.html[/url]

[Nunsense]

I guess I can understand charistmatic prayer meetings, but I really find it hard to reconcile the Pentecost experience with the Passion experience during the Mass. The Mass reminds us of Christ's sacrifice, and the Eucharist is a memorial of His passion and death. So, for me, I think that the charismatic "gifts" celebration should be reserved for prayer meetings only. I might be misunderstanding the charistmastic charism here, but since I often cry during the consecration or after receiving communion, I would feel very uncomfortable with a "happy" or "joyous" congregation during this time. Just me.

[jeffpugh]

Well, why not? The Mass IS linked to the eternal sacrifice on Calvary. No way getting around that.

[Saint Therese]

Hola,Pham! Briefly, the update is that i was unaable to go the preyer group meeting this month because of scheduling conflicts with my second job. I will make an effort to have that day free for next month, though. I really loved the whole experience. While nthing earth shattering happened, it was a really transforming experience.
I really appreciate everyne's input and support, thanks!
I don't want to start a debate, but I just HAVE to respond to the poster who said they couldn't imagine being joyous during the consecration or Mass. I think we SHOULD be joyful. I think Jesus wants us to enjoy him and enjoy the good things in life. One might be sad while thinking of their sins or the suffering of Jesus, but at the same time, we are redeemed, and Jesus rose! (re: Babette's Feast)
More on this later!
I've got to go now and get some sleep for another day of thirteen and a half hours of work!
Love to all!

Edited May 7, 2008 by Saint Therese

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1521117' date='May 6 2008, 10:36 PM']I don't want to start a debate, but I just HAVE to respond to the poster who said they couldn't imagine being joyous during the consecration or Mass. I think we SHOULD be joyful. I think Jesus wants us to enjoy him and enjoy the good things in life. One might be sad while thinking of their sins or the suffering of Jesus, but at the same time, we are redeemed, and Jesus rose! (re: Babette's Feast)[/quote]


No debate, just my thoughts...

I can appreciate that we should be "joyful" when we think ahead to the resurrection and the ascension and pentecost (joyous events indeed), but the Mass itself is a sacramental share in the Lord's immolation and sacrifice. This doesn't mean that it is about "sadness", thinking of sins or even trying to think of Jesus' suffering. For me, it is about the offering our own lives to God in sacrifice, to join our lives to the sacrifice that has already been made by Jesus. This is a solemn occasion - one doesn't make such a sacrifice lightly.

And the moment of consecration is a miracle - a mystery so profound and so awesome that it really can't be understood with the mind. Antoine de Saint-Exupery said it best "It is only with the heart that one can see clearly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." What an overwhelming condescension it is that God should manifest Himself in the bread and wine and allow us to take Him into our bodies. And the even more amazing thing is that this miracle occurs at every Mass! The Mass isn't just an occasion of praise and worship, although these are also present in the Mass, but it is the "Last Supper" relived over and over again because Jesus asked us to do this in memory of Him. I doubt that there was much joy when He told His disciples that they were eating His body and drinking His blood, which was going to be offered as a sacrifice for them and for us all.

A great saint, Padre Pio would cry during the course of the Mass almost continuously. To an inquirer about this he said, [i]"I don't want to shed small tears. I want to shed a flood of tears. Don't you see the great mystery of the Mass?"[/i]

And while I am sure you are right in saying that Jesus wants us to enjoy Him, our joy was won at the cost of His great suffering and His life. If we forget that, we minimize what He did for us.


Maybe to close I might just add that at the moment of receiving Communion, we take God into our own bodies. If we think it amazing that the Blessed Virgin carried Our Lord within her body for nine months, she who was without sin - then how incredible is it that God would allow us to receive Him into our bodies, we who are full of sin?? An occasion of joy, yes, but also one of profound and humbling reverence.


[i]Only God would have thought
of such a gift...
and only the love of God
would have given it.[/i]
Dom Eugene Boylan OCSO

Edited May 7, 2008 by nunsense

[Noel's angel]

There is a time for everything (go read Ecclesiastes 3 or listen to Nina Simone). The Mass is a sacrifice. Now, I can't think of any time when people would be 'joyous' during a sacrificial act. Yes, Jesus rose from the dead and the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles at Pentecost, and that fact MUST be celebrated, but the Liturgy of the Eucharist is NOT that time.

I'm with ya nunsense

Edited May 7, 2008 by Noel's angel

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1521161' date='May 7 2008, 01:42 AM']No debate, just my thoughts...

I can appreciate that we should be "joyful" when we think ahead to the resurrection and the ascension and pentecost (joyous events indeed), but the Mass itself is a sacramental share in the Lord's immolation and sacrifice. This doesn't mean that it is about "sadness", thinking of sins or even trying to think of Jesus' suffering. For me, it is about the offering our own lives to God in sacrifice, to join our lives to the sacrifice that has already been made by Jesus. This is a solemn occasion - one doesn't make such a sacrifice lightly.

And the moment of consecration is a miracle - a mystery so profound and so awesome that it really can't be understood with the mind. Antoine de Saint-Exupery said it best "It is only with the heart that one can see clearly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." What an overwhelming condescension it is that God should manifest Himself in the bread and wine and allow us to take Him into our bodies. And the even more amazing thing is that this miracle occurs at every Mass! The Mass isn't just an occasion of praise and worship, although these are also present in the Mass, but it is the "Last Supper" relived over and over again because Jesus asked us to do this in memory of Him. I doubt that there was much joy when He told His disciples that they were eating His body and drinking His blood, which was going to be offered as a sacrifice for them and for us all.

A great saint, Padre Pio would cry during the course of the Mass almost continuously. To an inquirer about this he said, [i]"I don't want to shed small tears. I want to shed a flood of tears. Don't you see the great mystery of the Mass?"[/i]

And while I am sure you are right in saying that Jesus wants us to enjoy Him, our joy was won at the cost of His great suffering and His life. If we forget that, we minimize what He did for us.
Maybe to close I might just add that at the moment of receiving Communion, we take God into our own bodies. If we think it amazing that the Blessed Virgin carried Our Lord within her body for nine months, she who was without sin - then how incredible is it that God would allow us to receive Him into our bodies, we who are full of sin?? An occasion of joy, yes, but also one of profound and humbling reverence.
[i]Only God would have thought
of such a gift...
and only the love of God
would have given it.[/i]
Dom Eugene Boylan OCSO[/quote]

I found this to be a beautiful post on the Mass which offered some great little thoughts/meditations on the Mass itself. Thank you. So beautiful.

[quote]The first Catholic Charismatic Prayer meeting would have to have been the Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the Apostles. During the early church, charisms were considered a normal part of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is only during more modern times that this has been ignored.[/quote]

Why did these meetings, it seems, stop then and become ignored with in the Church? Why did the Pentecostal church become the church that "re"-sparked the modern movement with in the Catholic Church? And I can't seem to reconcile also that the modern movement was rooted in heresy (that the gifts were essential-Pentecostalism) upon it's supposed re-birth more then a thousand years later. Any thoughts on these comments or questions I put forth? These are some of the questions that I have had since my conversion about the Charismatic movement with in the Church. I don't mean to sound like I am attacking the movement... I don't understand it and can't reconcile. I am looking for answers.

[quote]I belong to a Charismatic Catholic Church and I will say that I see more reverence for the mass and the Eucharist than I see at some other traditional churches.[/quote]

I in no way meant to question the devotion and love for our Lord that those who are associated with the charismatic movement have. I know many holy people as well that have been/are associated with it. I am sorry if I came off as questioning their deovtion and love of our Lord.

[quote]Pope John Paul II was a great supporter of the new evangelization and charismatic renewal of the Catholic Church. I will give you a link to one of his addresses to the ICCRO Council. If you go through his years of addresses and writings, you will find many references to the Charismatic movement. It started with the Catholic Church, people just forgot what it was.[/quote]

This is something that was brought to my attention in the past, that supposedly Pope John Paul II supported the movement. I have also been told he said that the movement should be watched closely as well. I have never read this though, so I don't know if it is true. I have great respect and put a lot on the word's of Pope John Paul II. So his supposed approval of the movement has really made me desire answers to my above questions even more so.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1521189' date='May 7 2008, 07:58 AM']Why did these meetings, it seems, stop then and become ignored with in the Church? Why did the Pentecostal church become the church that "re"-sparked the modern movement with in the Catholic Church? And I can't seem to reconcile also that the modern movement was rooted in heresy (that the gifts were essential-Pentecostalism) upon it's supposed re-birth more then a thousand years later. Any thoughts on these comments or questions I put forth? These are some of the questions that I have had since my conversion about the Charismatic movement with in the Church. I don't mean to sound like I am attacking the movement... I don't understand it and can't reconcile. I am looking for answers.[/quote]

I don't think the charismatic gifts ever completely disappeared from the Church. St. Francis Xavier, for example, had the [url="http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Miracles/Miracles_005.htm"]gift of tongues[/url]. Pentecostalism sparked more of a popular movement among large numbers of Christians, but as we know some sect of Pentecostals have denied the Trinity or other doctrine, making them no more Christian than Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Still, most Pentecostals are genuinely Christian, so the gifts aren't rooted in heresy. For whatever reason, that's simply where the Holy Spirit chose to show these signs (who knows why... maybe part of God's plan to restore perfect unity) in our age.

[Deb]

First I should say that there is a big difference between a Charismatic prayer meeting and a charismatic church. We have praise and worship nights about once every three months. We gather, we pray, we sing, we have readings, we commune as one group for the Glory of the Lord.

The only thing "Charismatic" about the mass is the music before mass will have more of a P&W feel. During the mass, the music and singing is reverent and beautiful. People are free to say, Bless the Lord or Holy is your name or Thank you Lord after certain songs in keeping with the part of the mass in which they are sung.

Every part of the mass is in keeping with the canon and the rubrics of the church. The homily is always within the teaching of the church and is used to teach the parishioners. It always has bible references and is directly related to the readings.

The liturgy of the Mass and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are as beautiful as always. I myself cry by the time I get to communion and usually through communion. I cry because I am so very thankful that the Lord has given me this gift of faith and offers me the reception of himself in the Eucharist every day, even twice a day if I want!!

I will say that usually the exit song is very lively.? That is the only time I wish they would just skip that song. Sometimes people clap and I cringe. I will say that our masses are not empty of people and even daily masses can have 100 people. Not bad for a parish of only 1100 families.

Don't confuse charismatic gatherings with mass. Two different things.

[Saint Therese]

Well its that time again. Monday night I'll be going to the Catholic charismatic prayer group meeting. I'm hoping that it will be fruitful. Sad to say I missed the last one which also had Mass and annointing of the sick.
I'll pray for everyone's special intentions.

[Thomist-in-Training]

Regarding the linked article about Saint Francis Xavier "speaking in tongues," in his context the term seems to mean speaking, for example, French, to Frenchmen, when he had never learnt French; not praying in either a real or possibly unknown language aloud, which, I believe, is charismatic speaking in tongues:
[quote]"Xavier," [part of the process of his canonization] says, “was illustrious for the gift of tongues, for he spoke with elegance and fluency the languages, which he had never learnt, of different nations, to whom he went for the sake of preaching the Gospel, just as if he had been born and bred among them; and it happened not infrequently, that while he was preaching, men of diverse nations heard him speak each in his own language.”[/quote]

I really like Nunsense's comment too.

Saint Therese, be careful about the "anointing of the sick" after Mass. I know I have seen this sacrament misused at my local parish at least, which isn't particularly charismatic: After Mass our priest announces that he will give this Sacrament to anyone who feels in need of healing, either in body or spirit, and people file up (about 15 or so the few times I've seen this, of all ages). This is [b]not [/b]the true use of the Sacrament--it is only for those who are in danger of [i]death[/i] due to either serious illness or old age:

[quote]Extreme Unction may be validly administered only to Christians who have had the use of reason and who are in danger of death from sickness.[/quote] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm"]Catholic Encyclopedia[/url].

[quote]The Second Vatican Council adds the following: "'Extreme Unction,' which may also and more fittingly be called 'Anointing of the Sick,' is not a sacrament for those only who are at the point of death. Hence, as soon as any one of the faithful begins to be in danger of death from sickness or old age, the appropriate time for him to receive this sacrament has certainly already arrived."[/quote] [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19721130_sacram-unctionem_en.html"]Sacram unctionem infirmorum[/url], document of Pope Paul VI on this Sacrament.

*edit: grammar + spelling

Edited June 3, 2008 by Thomist-in-Training

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1555008' date='Jun 2 2008, 09:01 PM']Regarding the linked article about Saint Francis Xavier "speaking in tongues," in his context the term seems to mean speaking, for example, French, to Frenchmen, when he had never learnt French; not praying in either a real or possibly unknown language aloud, which, I believe, is charismatic speaking in tongues:[/quote]

True, not the common charismatic experience (although, since usually everyone at a particular gathering speaks the same language, you wouldn't know if you were fluently speaking another language), but they are all variations of the same gift. Also worth noting that St. Xavier wasn't a "charismatic," and one doesn't need to be a "charismatic" (as we know them in the modern movement) to receive charismatic gifts. While the Holy Spirit can move in incredibly powerful ways, often it's more like the whisper in the night.

Edited June 4, 2008 by LouisvilleFan