Circumcision Immoral

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Deb' post='1496239' date='Apr 10 2008, 08:30 AM']Pope Pius XII was dead before HIV was ever heard of.

I think you should write Pope Benedict XVI and ask him his opinion. I am sure it is at the top of his list of things the world needs clarification on right now.

I am wondering if maybe you aren't the recipient of a botched circumcision and have a lot of anger regarding the procedure?[/quote]
HIV is irrelevant as i pointed out the churches moral teaching on sex is the cure. HIV can be avoided("that cannot be countered in any other way") by being monogamous. so if he heard of HIV does not matter.

The fact that I have produced a CCC statement that condemns amputating arbitrarily (and again the fact that no major medical association recommends it it is arbitrary) means that you are being rebellious against the Church and against God, in persisting in an error.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1496282' date='Apr 10 2008, 09:41 AM']Yes, and because one Dr. mentioned it, of course none ever use anesthetic, and the only purpose that people are using it for is as a remedy to masturbation... [/quote]
Actually in the United states that is why Circumcision became so wide spread, and that is why it did not become wide spread in other countries at the same time. and its not just one doctor if you were to do just a little research(which you wont do because you want to follow your own will) you would discover this is common to not use anestheics.
I dont think most people use it as a remedy today and i didnt claim they do i said that is what it started out as.

but what i find interesting is the fact that you are do not answer any of the other points but instead use an ad hominem.

[praying4carmel]

From Habit Wearing to Circumcision being necessary or not..

Phatmass has it all..

How about the plain hygiene issue of the fact that some uncircumcised men DON"T wash their winkies well and women should not be subjected to that!

[Aloysius]

so do you believe mutilation is an acceptable alternative to potential poor hygiene?

some people don't wear deodorant... perhaps we ought to remove their sweat glands.

there's a very simple solution: boys need to be taught good hygiene from an early age.

[praying4carmel]

I was being facetious. Sorry..that did not come across well.

I do agree with you that Boys as well as Girls need to be taught hygiene at an early age.

Having not ever been a mother, I really cannot relate to this issue, However, I will say that the rates of Cervical Cancer seem to be rising, and that there seems to be a relation to the issue however small.

I think that the bottom line is that for me, we seem in the US to be ashamed of our bodies and our genitals. If we had a healthy bodily culture, maybe we would not be afraid of touching ourselves for hygiene, and we could be taught better boundaries as children with relation to our bodies. But again, I am not a parent. I would want my child to have a healthy knowledge of his or her body.

Would I circumcise my son? I honestly would say that I would have to know more and would have to pray about it. You have given much food for thought.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1496303' date='Apr 10 2008, 10:12 AM']From Habit Wearing to Circumcision being necessary or not..

Phatmass has it all..

How about the plain hygiene issue of the fact that some uncircumcised men DON"T wash their winkies well and women should not be subjected to that![/quote]
I agree with you boys should be taught to wash but again i point out that most men are uncircumcised and are perfectly healthy. If you look a little deeper into these studies that "Prove" the benefits of circumcision you can see how the data is manipulated.

Researchers Demonstrate Traumatic Effects of Circumcision

A team of Canadian researchers produced new evidence that circumcision has long-lasting traumatic effects. An article published in the international medical journal The Lancet reported the effect of infant circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. The researchers tested 87 infants at 4 months or 6 months of age. The boys who had been circumcised were more sensitive to pain than the uncircumcised boys. Differences between groups were significant regarding facial action, crying time, and assessments of pain.

The authors believe that "neonatal circumcision may induce long-lasting changes in infant pain behavior because of alterations in the infant’s central neural processing of painful stimuli." They also write that "the long-term consequences of surgery done without anaesthesia are likely to include post-traumatic stress as well as pain. It is therefore possible that the greater vaccination response in the infants circumcised without anaesthesia may represent an infant analogue of a post-traumatic stress disorder triggered by a traumatic and painful event and re-experienced under similar circumstances of pain during vaccination."

Taddio, A. et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Response during Subsequent Routine Vaccination," The Lancet 349 (1997): 599–603.

there is also a book called: Circumcision the hidden trauma, that you should check out

[Paladin D]

I will not circumsize any of my boys, period. Unless, it was absolutely necessary.

Edited April 10, 2008 by Paladin D

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496286' date='Apr 10 2008, 11:47 AM']HIV is irrelevant as i pointed out the churches moral teaching on sex is the cure. HIV can be avoided("that cannot be countered in any other way") by being monogamous. so if he heard of HIV does not matter.

The fact that I have produced a CCC statement that condemns amputating arbitrarily (and again the fact that no major medical association recommends it it is arbitrary) means that you are being rebellious against the Church and against God, in persisting in an error.[/quote]
The Church says circumcision is ok for medical reasons. Get over it.
Both my boys were snipped WITH anesthetic.
There are much more important issues in life.

[Deb]

You know, your premise is kind of based on false information. You took your CCC quote, not out of any part that dealt with circumcision but, on kidnapping and torture. Very out of context. So, here for all, is the complete CCC 2297/2298. The only time circumcision is brought up in the CCC is to mention Christ's circumcision and listing it as one of the liturgical signs of the Old Covenant.

[i]Kidnapping[/i] and [i]hostage taking[/i] bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. [i]Terrorism[/i] threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. [i]Torture[/i] which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended [i]amputations[/i], [i]mutilations[/i], and [i]sterilizations[/i] performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.[sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm#91"]91[/url][/sup]

[size=2]In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.[/size]</FONT>

Edited April 10, 2008 by Deb

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496286' date='Apr 10 2008, 04:47 PM']HIV is irrelevant as i pointed out the churches moral teaching on sex is the cure. HIV can be avoided("that cannot be countered in any other way") by being monogamous. so if he heard of HIV does not matter.[/quote]

And as I pointed out (and you ignored) HIV is not spread solely through sex. In some countries (i.e. the whole of Latin America) the main mode of transmission is from a mother to her unborn baby. People can get HIV through unsanitary conditions in hospitals (i.e. reused needles, which is a HUGE problem in poorer countries) or unhygienic sanitation (again, a very serious problem in the developing world). Furthermore, it is possible to carry HIV and not know that you have the virus, so stop making it sound as though its a disease that is spread through nothing but promiscuity and that abstinence will suddenly make it go away. Abstinence won't make extreme poverty go away and cause pristine hospitals to spring up overnight, complete with needles and other equipment all sterilised in beautiful clean boiling water (another thing that developing countries tend to lack). Abstinence won't make rapists go away. (HIV-infected men sometimes rape women as 'punishment' in certain areas where the infection is rife - I was watching a documentary on it quite recently.) Abstinence is not the answer to everything. Yes, it is important, but it is not the sole response to the problem. Again, as I have already pointed out, the Catholic Church's response to countries with a severe HIV/AIDS problem is not just to promote sexual abstinence but to address the numerous other factors that cause this horrific disease to be perpetuated.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
this is an issue i struggle with, but my husband says that if we have any boys that we should circumcise. he is not Catholic, but it is important to him. and he feels that if we don't circumcise that our boys will wonder why they are not like their daddy or (later) other boys.

but still an issue i struggle with.

[Archaeology cat]

I had been under the impression that male circumcision was frowned upon more in those cases where people considered it to be a necessary act for salvation, but if that was not your motivation, it was fine (depending on how you personally feel about circumcision). I'm fairly ambivalent towards it, personally. My son was not circumcised, simply because non-therapeutic circumcisions are not performed in the UK. Were we in the US, I'm not sure whether we would have had him circumcised or not. I'm leaning towards not (because I'm not sure about clotting and everything without the Vit K injection, which I didn't want for other reasons), but I can't say with certainty since I wasn't in that situation.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1496388' date='Apr 10 2008, 06:19 PM']he feels that if we don't circumcise that our boys will wonder why they are not like their daddy[/quote]
That is something I've thought about, to be honest.

[prose]

This thread has given me lots to think about.

In regards to the HIV/AIDS thing, abstinence would be the answer. Ultimately if everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) remained chaste and monogamous, there would not be a problem. Eventually HIV/AIDS would have no way to spread and it would stop (not immediately, but it would).

The thing is, rapists tend to not be chaste and monogamous, they probably wouldn't choose so.

I think to say AIDS is a bigger problem than sex is true, but it is only bigger because promiscuity has made it so.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1496365' date='Apr 10 2008, 11:52 AM']The Church says circumcision is ok for medical reasons. Get over it.
Both my boys were snipped WITH anesthetic.
There are much more important issues in life.[/quote]
Actually that argument doesnt work because the American medical association says there is no valid reason to circumcise baby boys. Which again means your doing it for your own reasons. Its simple enough to say what i did was wrong but i didnt know. but to persist in error is not wise.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1496388' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:19 PM']he feels that if we don't circumcise that our boys will wonder why they are not like their daddy or (later) other boys.[/quote]

I've come across discussions on other message boards simply based on this reason. It's interesting to point out that statistics show that circumcision in the United States is dropping: [url="http://www.cirp.org/news/columbusdispatch01-15-06/"]Circumcision rates decline nationally, albeit more slowly in Midwest[/url].

Also do take into consideration, male circumcision is the exception to the norm in the international community (including Europe). The United States is one of the very few countries that has a large percentage of circumcized males.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Deb' post='1496366' date='Apr 10 2008, 11:52 AM']You know, your premise is kind of based on false information. You took your CCC quote, not out of any part that dealt with circumcision but, on kidnapping and torture. Very out of context. So, here for all, is the complete CCC 2297/2298. The only time circumcision is brought up in the CCC is to mention Christ's circumcision and listing it as one of the liturgical signs of the Old Covenant.

[i]Kidnapping[/i] and [i]hostage taking[/i] bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. [i]Terrorism[/i] threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. [i]Torture[/i] which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended [i]amputations[/i], [i]mutilations[/i], and [i]sterilizations[/i] performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.[sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm#91"]91[/url][/sup]

[size=2]In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.[/size]</FONT>[/quote]
your own argument falls short because if you look at the whole text [quote]Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law[/quote] is given in saying this is only when such things can be done. so then the question must be asked is circumcision medically necessary and again every major medical association in the world says NO! and when you take that in context with Pius XII then we see the chruch is clear enough it cant be dont unless the area is diseased, this is the same reason you cant remove a uterus even if, if the woman gets pregnatnt again she will die you can only remove the uterus after it is torn not preemptively.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1496379' date='Apr 10 2008, 12:04 PM']And as I pointed out (and you ignored) HIV is not spread solely through sex. In some countries (i.e. the whole of Latin America) the main mode of transmission is from a mother to her unborn baby. People can get HIV through unsanitary conditions in hospitals (i.e. reused needles, which is a HUGE problem in poorer countries) or unhygienic sanitation (again, a very serious problem in the developing world). Furthermore, it is possible to carry HIV and not know that you have the virus, so stop making it sound as though its a disease that is spread through nothing but promiscuity and that abstinence will suddenly make it go away. Abstinence won't make extreme poverty go away and cause pristine hospitals to spring up overnight, complete with needles and other equipment all sterilised in beautiful clean boiling water (another thing that developing countries tend to lack). Abstinence won't make rapists go away. (HIV-infected men sometimes rape women as 'punishment' in certain areas where the infection is rife - I was watching a documentary on it quite recently.) Abstinence is not the answer to everything. Yes, it is important, but it is not the sole response to the problem. Again, as I have already pointed out, the Catholic Church's response to countries with a severe HIV/AIDS problem is not just to promote sexual abstinence but to address the numerous other factors that cause this horrific disease to be perpetuated.[/quote]
I agree with what you said but the problem is that all of this has no valid place in this argument. no it doesnt make rapists go away but what does circumcision and rape have to do with one another? I hope you are not proposing the absurd that we should cut little boys penises because they might grow up and be rapists? HIV and AIDs are spreac not mostly through unsanitary conditions but through promiscuity [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3610487.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3610487.stm[/url] as a matter of fact HIV and AID's are most commonly spread through homosexual acts and when women get it, it actually tends to be from men who are bisexual. as for mothers passing it on to their children again this is no argument for circumcision as it is incumbent on the child to be responsible and abstain unless you are proposing that they should be allowed to use condoms which is of course another problem in and of itself.

My point still stands there is no morally acceptable reason to preemptively remove a healthy part of the human body.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1496388' date='Apr 10 2008, 12:19 PM']+J.M.J.+
this is an issue i struggle with, but my husband says that if we have any boys that we should circumcise. he is not Catholic, but it is important to him. and he feels that if we don't circumcise that our boys will wonder why they are not like their daddy or (later) other boys.

but still an issue i struggle with.[/quote]
The church has spoken. this is a matter which your husband needs to become more educated about. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXal6eR8_NI"]Just like Dad[/url]. you are cutting of 20,000 nerves for no reason and you are risking complications some of which cannot be detected until they are adults. It is important to obey the Church, and it is important that you and your husband become more educated that is always a good place to start.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496420' date='Apr 10 2008, 11:43 AM']The church has spoken. this is a matter which your husband needs to become more educated about. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXal6eR8_NI"]Just like Dad[/url]. you are cutting of 20,000 nerves for no reason and you are risking complications some of which cannot be detected until they are adults. It is important to obey the Church, and it is important that you and your husband become more educated that is always a good place to start.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
umm, did you see where i said my husband was not Catholic? (though i'm trying ) a lot of things he doesn't really care what the Church teaches. i'm trying to start with the major things, ya know, like the Eucharist, baptism, Church authority, Mary.

besides, we haven't yet been blessed with a boy, just one girl.

honestly, your post comes off as very judgmental to me. i do try to obey the Church in all things.