Is It My Business?

[KnightofChrist]

Here is what may be a total different way of thinking. Somehow you need to learn how to play this game without losing. Perhaps, reel it back a little, asking too much can do great harm. You may have indeed said too much and because you are worried you have not notice. Be humble, play her game a little. Write her a short letter no more than one paragrah, simple and to the point.

Say something like honey your mother and I love you, and worry for you. We apologize for taking that worrying and concern too far. Just know that we love you, and if you would allow we would like to hear from you every couple weeks, or when you have time, and we will talk about whatever you want to talk about, if only to know that you are alive and ok, and to tell you we love you.

You got to keep in mind that its no longer a Adult Father, child daughter relationship, it is a Adult Father Adult Daughter relationship. You must treat her as an Adult, not as a kid. Or try your best. If you try to hard talk to her, such as calling her to much, or trying everyway in the world to get her to call, and then getting upset when she does not contact you back this will do nothing but make you seem overpowering, and push her away. Because it will confrim her false notion that you are the bad guy.

You should try backing down, playing it her way. It will be hard because at first she may say nope, no deal, but in that case leave her alone for a time, a month and write her again saying something similar in paragraph two of this post. Then conitue doing that every month or so until she writes back, but dont be "nosy" or get upset, or ask things that will only push her away just tell her something good about your day, or a day you had.

[apparent]

[quote]Posted by: praying4carmel Apr 10 2008, 12:30 PM

Sorry..it got screwey there for a minute and I got a Flood control warning..[/quote]
What is "got a Flood control warning"



[quote]Posted by: Socrates Apr 11 2008, 09:32 PM

While I'm not a family counselor, and I don't know the whole story, from what you say it sounds like your daughter is a disgusting, disrespectful little brat.[/quote]
Please don't think unkindly of her, dispite my displeasure such thoughts are offensive to me.



[quote]Posted by: KnightofChrist Apr 12 2008, 1:09 AM

Here is what may be a total different way of thinking. Somehow you need to learn how to play this game without losing.[/quote]

This is no game. I've tried your approach to no avail.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1496382' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:09 PM']+J.M.J.+
i agree with deb here. by you constantly seeking her and trying to be a part of her life, you are driving her further away.

and i want to be honest here with everyone. maybe there are legitimate reasons his daughter wants no part of her family. because his daughter doesn't post here, we don't know all the sides of the story. we are only getting one side.[/quote]


I absolutely agree. 100%. I think it would be wise to remember (everyone) that we only have one side of the story here. Maybe the daughter believes she has very good reason for wanting this independence. Perhaps mom and dad should respect daughter's wishes for a time and give her space. In time she might come to desire a reunion and rebuild the relationship of her own accord. Pushing where there is so much resistance just seems like a futile exercise to me.

[rachael]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1496382' date='Apr 10 2008, 01:09 PM']+J.M.J.+
i agree with deb here. by you constantly seeking her and trying to be a part of her life, you are driving her further away.

and i want to be honest here with everyone. maybe there are legitimate reasons his daughter wants no part of her family. because his daughter doesn't post here, we don't know all the sides of the story. we are only getting one side.[/quote]
I agree.

But I gotta say, as a 21 year old...all I want is true independence from my parents in every way...I would love to be able to do everything on my own, no matter what it takes.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='rachael' post='1498497' date='Apr 13 2008, 12:02 PM']I agree.

But I gotta say, as a 21 year old...all I want is true independence from my parents in every way...I would love to be able to do everything on my own, no matter what it takes.[/quote]


Good for you, Rachel. At the risk of sounding old-fashioned (I'm not old but I am old-fashioned sometimes) there used to be an era not long ago when 21 year olds were quite mature, quite grown-up. In some cases a 21 year old woman was already married with at least one child (maybe--but at least married) or if not she was putting herself through college and if not that then she was working to help her family (not the other way around like it is today--young people rarely have to lift a finger to do jack for their families). Both men and women of this age were thinking of their futures and what direction they wanted their lives to go. They accepted big responsibilities even when it crimped their own lifetsyle. They were more serious-minded, more mature. Not that they weren't just as youthful and idealistic as 21 year olds today. But we have lost a sense of maturity that so desperately needs to be recovered.

Nowadays parents do EVERYTHING for their kids...very often right up until their kids marry! My boss has a 26 year daughter and she literally does everything for her daughter. Everything. She keeps track of her health insurance, car insurance, tells her how to go about paying for her condo, files her taxes for her, tracks her bills for her (including cell phone), helps her making shopping decisions (can't buy a gift for her own boyfriend without running it by mom first). The daughter only has to pick up the phone and tell her mom what she needs ("I need to switch cell phone packages", for example) and her mom will see to it. Granted, the mother loves her daughter and she loves doing these things. Just loves it too much, I think. She even orders her daughter's airline tickets for her when she needs to travel. She finds the best deals for the destination and then makes the purchase and then tell her daughter what she owes her. It's just so shocking to me. At 26 years old she doesn't have to run anything in her own life. It is completely uncalled for. But I believe this is par for the course in American families.

I applaud you for not only accepting maturity and independence, but demanding it.

[rachael]

Well, I am not saying I have full independence yet. Because I definitely don't. As long as my parents are paying for some of my bills, I am not going to. I believe things are (hopefully) going to change when I graduate from college. One more year...

I am ready to be thrown into a grown-up world and to be shocked by what I see. I [i]need[/i] to get a full-time job. I [i]need[/i] to pay my own bills. I need to do things on my own. Actually, I don't just need to, I [b]desire[/b] to. It's this desire that's making me go a little crazy.

One of the best pieces of advice my mother has given me thus far is this: "Rachael, do me a favor and live on your own for a while before you get married. You will appreciate the fact that you did."

Edited April 13, 2008 by rachael

[Lena]

[quote name='rachael' post='1498611' date='Apr 13 2008, 04:45 PM']Well, I am not saying I have full independence yet. Because I definitely don't. As long as my parents are paying for some of my bills, I am not going to. I believe things are (hopefully) going to change when I graduate from college. One more year...

I am ready to be thrown into a grown-up world and to be shocked by what I see. I [i]need[/i] to get a full-time job. I [i]need[/i] to pay my own bills. I need to do things on my own. Actually, I don't just need to, I [b]desire[/b] to. It's this desire that's making me go a little crazy.

One of the best pieces of advice my mother has given me thus far is this: "Rachael, do me a favor and live on your own for a while before you get married. You will appreciate the fact that you did."[/quote]

I feel the same way, I don't like being dependent on others. Even though I do work, I still can't afford my life (school, rent) at this point without my parents help.

[Socrates]

[quote name='apparent' post='1498433' date='Apr 13 2008, 06:53 AM']Please don't think unkindly of her, dispite my displeasure such thoughts are offensive to me.[/quote]
Sorry - I should have said specifically her behavior in regard to her parents is disgusting and disrespectful, at least as you have reported it here.


You are perfectly within your rights to discontinue paying for her college education.
It is wrong that she should be living off your resources while at the same time refusing to have anything to do with you. Perhaps some time spent on her own in the "real world" without daddy's money to bail her out will teach her some lessons.
I am disgusted by the "entitlement" mentality by which people think they are entitled to support from others without giving anything, not even basic respect, in return. Maybe it's time she learn the real meaning of total independence.

Edited April 13, 2008 by Socrates

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1498607' date='Apr 13 2008, 09:12 PM']My boss has a 26 year daughter and she literally does everything for her daughter. Everything. She keeps track of her health insurance, car insurance, tells her how to go about paying for her condo, files her taxes for her, tracks her bills for her (including cell phone), helps her making shopping decisions (can't buy a gift for her own boyfriend without running it by mom first). The daughter only has to pick up the phone and tell her mom what she needs ("I need to switch cell phone packages", for example) and her mom will see to it. Granted, the mother loves her daughter and she loves doing these things. Just loves it too much, I think. She even orders her daughter's airline tickets for her when she needs to travel. She finds the best deals for the destination and then makes the purchase and then tell her daughter what she owes her. It's just so shocking to me. At 26 years old she doesn't have to run anything in her own life. It is completely uncalled for. But I believe this is par for the course in American families.[/quote]
That would absolutely drive me nuts. Ironically, though, that is how it's been with my older sister for a while. I rebelled against that, pretty much, as I love my independence and always have. While my parents helped me out to finish college, I was responsible for credit cards, cell phone, car payment, car insurance, etc and did pay some of the college expenses. When I graduated, I moved back in with them for a bit (until getting married shortly thereafter), but still paid for my own things pretty much and had a job and everything. I wanted the responsibility of paying my own bills, filing my own taxes, etc. I know my parents still helped quite a bit, but I felt I was being irresponsible if I didn't take on the majority of these tasks for myself.

[rachael]

[quote name='Lena' post='1498616' date='Apr 13 2008, 04:57 PM']I feel the same way, I don't like being dependent on others. Even though I do work, I still can't afford my life (school, rent) at this point without my parents help.[/quote]
Me neither, and it's very...I don't know...unsettling.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='apparent' post='1497614' date='Apr 11 2008, 09:34 PM']All I can say is that my daughter was raised in catholic home in an honorably way. Her brothers are both well adjusted young men. We all lived clean wholesome lives, attended mass weekly and participated often in catholic community activities.
Letting go is not really the issue here. My immediate and extended family members have not conspired against this daughter who wants no part of her family. All are good people, all are my friends, and all pretend that nothing is amiss and avoid the subject of my child.
I can not pretend that she, my only daughter doesn't matter! I have to go with my gut. Lord god forgive me if I'm wrong.
Do parental rights end at 21?
Does the forth commandment say; Honor your father and your mother, until the age of 21[/quote]

Honoring your father and mother does NOT mean always obeying them. Once she is out of the house she doesn't have to anymore...

CCC 2217
As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord...

As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them.

So I guess the question is whether you are honestly allowing her the indepenence which she should have. She is 21; that seems plenty old enough to be supporting herself. If you are paying tuition that does change things a little, but not to the point that she is being treated as a child. She can and should live her own life at this point.

However, if she is just being hostile and standoffish that is different. She should then reflect on all that you have done for her. You can't control that part, though. If she is being like that, just give her space.

I think that either way, the only solution is for you to give her space.

[rachael]

Giving her space really does seem like the best solution. I went through basically the same thing my freshman year of college. My mother wanted to know everything and I, on the other hand, refused to tell or do what she wanted me to. She ended up giving me a lot space and our relationship has really grown.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1497635' date='Apr 11 2008, 08:32 PM']While I'm not a family counselor, and I don't know the whole story, from what you say it sounds like your daughter is being a disgusting, disrespectful little brat.

There is such a thing as being over-nosey and over-involved, but there's nothing wrong with keeping in touch with your daughter to a certain degree. And her blatant disrespect is a direct contradiction to the Fourth Commandment.

Are you paying for your daughters college tuition, room and board, etc.? If so, you can tell her that if she's such a grown-up independent woman, she can pay her own way without your help, and refuse to continue paying for her education until she shows some basic respect. I know that may sound harsh, but I think it's a needed lesson. It is wrong that she should depend on her parents for support, yet treat them with total disrespect.
It is disgusting how many kids now think they're entitled to everything, yet owe nothing in return.[/quote]
Lol, there's love for you. If you don't like how they act, ruin their life by ending their education. Good plan, slick. The fact is, she is an independent adult. Whether her parents like it or not, she has a reasonable right to privacy if she so desires. If your solution is to stop her college education simply because nosey parents are being told to back off, I'm glad you're not in control of my education.

[rachael]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1498662' date='Apr 13 2008, 05:56 PM']Lol, there's love for you. If you don't like how they act, ruin their life by ending their education. Good plan, slick. The fact is, she is an independent adult. Whether her parents like it or not, she has a reasonable right to privacy if she so desires. If your solution is to stop her college education simply because nosey parents are being told to back off, I'm glad you're not in control of my education.[/quote]
I don't know why, but you made me laugh.

[Socrates]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1498662' date='Apr 13 2008, 04:56 PM']Lol, there's love for you. If you don't like how they act, ruin their life by ending their education. Good plan, slick. The fact is, she is an independent adult. Whether her parents like it or not, she has a reasonable right to privacy if she so desires. If your solution is to stop her college education simply because nosey parents are being told to back off, I'm glad you're not in control of my education.[/quote]
A college education is a privilege, not an entitlement. If she's an independent adult, then she need not depend on her parents to pay her way through life.
If someone is spending a huge amount of money to support you and your endeavors, you [i]owe[/i] them some basic respect.
If she wants her parents totally out of her life, then they can withdraw their money from her life too.
Living off the support of others while treating them life dirt is the height of disrespect and ingratitude.

Edited April 13, 2008 by Socrates

[SeekingHisPlan]

[quote name='apparent' post='1496055' date='Apr 10 2008, 12:01 AM']It none of your business

My 21 year old is teed off at me because I what to know what she is doing, what are her (away at college) grades, do you need money and that kind of small talk in general, etc.

She said I'm 21, you can't boss me around, and I have free will! She even returned the cell phone I got for her and told me to stick it, implying I did it only to control her. ??????

The more I reach out, the worse our relationship (if you could call it that) becomes. We haven't spoken in a long time. She has asked me (by mail) to leave her alone, but I can not stop trying to talk and reason with her. My wife, her mother is on devastated by this, and has difficulty sleeping at night.

Is it my business?
I'm I wrong to defy her wishes and continue to send messages?[/quote]


I say this as a nearly-25 year old who has a fairly good relationship with my parents (although it was not always so.) I am a fiercely independent person who relied on scholarships, student loans and part-time work to scrape through school and I am now paying off the debt by myself.

Her grades: are not your business at all unless you are paying her tuition. If you are, I would say yes, your business to an extent, but at the end of the day, she's 21 and she's going to make her own decisions about her academic life. If you don't like those decisions, tell her she has a choice: straighten up or pay her own tuition. If she chooses the latter, her grades are no longer your business.

What she does, where she goes, who she sees: Not your business if she is not in your house. That is not to say you have no right to care and be concerned about what she is doing, but again, at her age, how much she tells you about that part of her life is up to her. I always felt less willing to share things wtih my parents if I thought they were going to give me a rough time about my decisions or ask a million questions about "Why did you do that," Same went if I felt they were trying to pry info out of me that I didn't feel like giving. I'd clam up more. Just give her the space and allow her to speak into it when/if she wants. It sounds to me like she is feeling overly smothered and monitored right now, which I'm sure was not your intent, but give her some space. She may come around.

Does she need money?: Apparently not if she's acting bratty about it. If she wants you to leave her alone that's fine but she doesn't get your money. Not a cent.

I am sorry this is such a rough time for your family. I pray that once she has some breathing space, she will be a little more receptive and all of you can hammer out something that works for your family.

[apparent]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1498618' date='Apr 13 2008, 05:58 PM']Sorry - I should have said specifically her behavior in regard to her parents is disgusting and disrespectful, at least as you have reported it here.


You are perfectly within your rights to discontinue paying for her college education.
It is wrong that she should be living off your resources while at the same time refusing to have anything to do with you. Perhaps some time spent on her own in the "real world" without daddy's money to bail her out will teach her some lessons.
I am disgusted by the "entitlement" mentality by which people think they are entitled to support from others without giving anything, not even basic respect, in return. Maybe it's time she learn the real meaning of total independence.[/quote]

It's not about money. After her first year at college I haven't been asked for money or anything. All I've ever wanted was to converse and be acknowledged. Her Birthday's, Christmases' have come and gone, without a word or reply.

If it was only me being ignored, I could live with it (not like it), but it's not.

I feel like the father in the "Prodigal son" parable without the happy ending.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I might have missed it, but I don't get the impression that the parents here are paying for the daughter's education. He specifically said she was "totally on her own, by her own choosing." Seems to indicate to me that she's providing for herself completely--which again, makes it only her business what her grades are and how she's paying her bills. (Edited to add--seems I was correct, apparent posted while I was composing my post.)

I have friends who left home as soon as they were legally able to avoid a bad home situation. Their parents weren't abusive, but they were inordinately controlling (I won't go into details here because I will not betray their trust, but the whole situation was very bizarre). The parents were shocked and didn't know what they could have done to drive their children away--from the outside they appeared to be a very happy loving Catholic family. Its taken years for my friends to even begin laying the foundation of a shaky relationship with their parents, but they are trying. (I am citing this as an example that things are not always what they appear to be, folks.)

I really think we need to lay off the accusations and calling this girl names. Though dad here seems very kind and concerned we don't have her side of the story so all assumptions of how terrible she must be are really quite unfair. Parents deserve respect, but even we do things which diminishes our children's respect for us. Then we have to earn it back just like everybody else. (Please note here that I am not saying anything bad about Apparent, I only know what he has posted in this thread and frankly that bit isn't all that much to be basing opinions of right and wrong on. I am trying to be fair to all parties involved, even those not here to defend themselves.)

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='apparent' post='1498433' date='Apr 13 2008, 06:53 AM']This is no game. I've tried your approach to no avail.[/quote]

Well in the since that you will win or lose your daughter it is a very serious "game" or time in the life of your family. How long did you try that approach? It took a friend of mine [u]years[/u] to bring her daughter back. All she basically did was say "I love you and pray for you." for all those years until finally it paid off. I pray you have or will humble yourself, and have or learn to be very patient. Look to the trials and years St. Monica went through to convert her son St. Augustine.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1498841' date='Apr 13 2008, 07:24 PM']I might have missed it, but I don't get the impression that the parents here are paying for the daughter's education. He specifically said she was "totally on her own, by her own choosing." Seems to indicate to me that she's providing for herself completely--which again, makes it only her business what her grades are and how she's paying her bills. (Edited to add--seems I was correct, apparent posted while I was composing my post.)

I have friends who left home as soon as they were legally able to avoid a bad home situation. Their parents weren't abusive, but they were inordinately controlling (I won't go into details here because I will not betray their trust, but the whole situation was very bizarre). The parents were shocked and didn't know what they could have done to drive their children away--from the outside they appeared to be a very happy loving Catholic family. Its taken years for my friends to even begin laying the foundation of a shaky relationship with their parents, but they are trying. (I am citing this as an example that things are not always what they appear to be, folks.)

[b]I really think we need to lay off the accusations and calling this girl names. Though dad here seems very kind and concerned we don't have her side of the story so all assumptions of how terrible she must be are really quite unfair. Parents deserve respect, but even we do things which diminishes our children's respect for us. Then we have to earn it back just like everybody else. [/b](Please note here that I am not saying anything bad about Apparent, I only know what he has posted in this thread and frankly that bit isn't all that much to be basing opinions of right and wrong on. I am trying to be fair to all parties involved, even those not here to defend themselves.)[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
thanks, Ice, for saying exactly what i was going to say!