Who Will The World Blame?

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Lena' post='1502755' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:12 PM']Islam means submission [i]to God[/i], not the way you're using it.[/quote]


No he's right, Islam on its own means Submission, and Muslim means one who submits. Its submission to Allah, but to be more accurate, it'd be a longer phrase. Thats if you're taking the name literally, but in the norm it means Submission to Allah.

[Lena]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502780' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:34 PM']No he's right, Islam on its own means Submission, and Muslim means one who submits. Its submission to Allah, but to be more accurate, it'd be a longer phrase. Thats if you're taking the name literally, but in the norm it means Submission to Allah.[/quote]

yes thats what I said. literally, it doesn't mean all Muslims want other non-Muslims to submit [i]to[/i] them though.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Lena' post='1502782' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:41 PM']yes thats what I said. literally, it doesn't mean all Muslims want other non-Muslims to submit [i]to[/i] them though.[/quote]
No that IS in the Quar'an, Jews and Christian who don't accept the Word of Allah given to the Prophet Muhammad are to be tolerated but made as second class citizens and given a special tax.

Pagans either convert or die, no literally, thats in there.

And they've divided the world into the House of Islam and the House of War, everybody who isn't Muslim resides in the house of war who are at war with Allah, basically meaning an honest Muslim immediately sees non-muslims as enemies of Allah.

[Lena]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502785' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:45 PM']No that IS in the Quar'an, Jews and Christian who don't accept the Word of Allah given to the Prophet Muhammad are to be tolerated but made as second class citizens and given a special tax.

Pagans either convert or die, no literally, thats in there.

And they've divided the world into the House of Islam and the House of War, everybody who isn't Muslim resides in the house of war who are at war with Allah, basically meaning an honest Muslim immediately sees non-muslims as enemies of Allah.[/quote]

my point is that there are plenty of everyday Muslims who don't wish to see America go up in flames.....and there's a difference between radical religious extremists and other Muslims. and the radicals don't represent the norm, or at least the actions, of the people who are Muslim and just want peace.

sorry-I mean "the West" I shouldn't just say the US.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Lena

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Lena' post='1502792' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:49 PM']my point is that there are plenty of everyday Muslims who don't wish to see America go up in flames.....and there's a difference between radical religious extremists and other Muslims. and the radicals don't represent the norm, or at least the actions, of the people who are Muslim and just want peace.[/quote]
Do you honestly think i'm ignoring that fact? the extremists use violence in words and deed is unneccesary, but they're the ones who aren't dilluting the teachings of the Qua'ran. Why is it that i'm being constantly accused that i'm refferring to all muslim when in fact, i'm referring to their Holy Scripture more then that?

[Lena]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502797' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:52 PM']Do you honestly think i'm ignoring that fact? the extremists use violence in words and deed is unneccesary, but they're the ones who aren't dilluting the teachings of the Qua'ran. Why is it that i'm being constantly accused that i'm refferring to all muslim when in fact, i'm referring to their Holy Scripture more then that?[/quote]

well, I think in referring to their holy scripture it can dangerously be taken out of context. I'm not saying you are or aren't, but I'm just thinking of how easily non-Christians can view Christianity out of context from some random quote they pulled out of the Bible and use it against Christians. Without understanding past, present history, the language it was written in, cultural attitudes, etc.

I wasn't accusing you BTW. Just giving an opinion.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Lena' post='1502807' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:00 PM']well, I think in referring to their holy scripture it can dangerously be taken out of context. I'm not saying you are or aren't, but I'm just thinking of how easily non-Christians can view Christianity out of context from some random quote they pulled out of the Bible and use it against Christians. Without understanding past, present history, the language it was written in, cultural attitudes, etc.[/quote]
I already said i'm studying Islam in Religious Studies, (which I'd rather not be doing, it really is quite boring sometimes, its mostly ritual. And I was rather placid to Islam most of my life till the extremists threatened Rome), And I have studied the History extensively, most of what Islam is is taken from Christian, (mostly heretic), teaching, Jewish scripture and native pagan influences passing through Arabia at the time of Muhammad. Whats new is the stuff most of us think is despictable. You're treating me as if I am ignorent of Islam and how it came about I assure you I am most certainly not. I will not call Islam an evil Religion because in that regard I have no right to Judge.

But some of what it teaches is, in the Christian sense, sinful.

I understand you are trying to present the dissenting voice, (In the sense you are trying to point your fellow posters to the other arguement and/or possibilities), a position which I respect you for, i've played that part all too many times. Even with regards to Islam. (I remember a thread where the posters where discussing institutionalised peadophilia in Islam which I thought was rediculous and tried to point it out. NOT on this forum mind)

[quote]I wasn't accusing you BTW. Just giving an opinion.[/quote]
You may have tried to but you didn't, you were, as I said, trying to make me 'see the other side of the fence' as it were, not giving me your actual opinion on the matter. But fair play to you none the less.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1502724' date='Apr 18 2008, 02:31 PM']I agree, even many of the Americans will somehow blame us. I once had a nun tell me that the reason there are corrupt governments in the world is because the United States made them corrupt.[/quote]

Sounds like Sister Mary of the Passive Candle Half Lit is in the wrong job.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Lena' post='1502755' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:12 PM']Islam means submission [i]to God[/i], not the way you're using it.[/quote]

First of all, Mohammed's deity is called "Allah", not God. Allah is not an Arabic translation of the name we call the Creator of All Things. Allah is some thing completely different who bears no resemblance whatsoever to the One, True God.

Secondly, the word "Islam" means "Submission". Period. Submission to Allah. Submission to Sharia. Submission to the Koran. Submission to Islamic culture. Submission to the pure model of Islamic life, Mohammed himself.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Lena' post='1502792' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:49 PM']and there's a difference between radical religious extremists and other Muslims. and the radicals don't represent the norm, or at least the actions, of the people who are Muslim and just want peace.[/quote]

See, here's what I don't understand, and maybe you can help me out, Lena. What is exactly *is* the difference you speak of? Because, see, I hear a lot of people say what you just said, that the nice Muslims are different from the radical Muslims. But no one ever elaborates on just exactly *how* they are different.

Are the nice Muslims different because...well, because they're nice? Can that be all? Because the way I see it, being "nice" versus being "radical" in and of itself is really not enough to draw a huge dividing line. They share the same religion, the same Islamic culture, the same Islamic history, the same Koran, the same hard-line reverence for Mohammed (a pedophile, murderer and war-mongerer), the same Hadith. So I don't get it. What's the big difference?

I mean what is so BIG about the difference that every single time someone begins a conversation about the dangers of Islamofascism, someone has to immediately interject with "they're not all like that". Okay, if they aren't then why is Islamofacism spreading all over the world, un-checked and un-challenged?

Because surely all those untold numbers of "nice Muslims" should be making a dent in their culture by now...shouldn't they?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502785' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:45 PM']No that IS in the Quar'an, Jews and Christian who don't accept the Word of Allah given to the Prophet Muhammad are to be tolerated but made as second class citizens and given a special tax.

Pagans either convert or die, no literally, thats in there.

And they've divided the world into the House of Islam and the House of War, everybody who isn't Muslim resides in the house of war who are at war with Allah, basically meaning an honest Muslim immediately sees non-muslims as enemies of Allah.[/quote]

It's not just about a special tax, though. If it were just about a tax then that might not be half bad after all. It would be unfair but one could carry on with one's life. No, it's many, many rules and regulations that are imposed upon non-Muslims besides just the tax. The goal is to make life so unbearable, exhausting and difficult that eventually they will give up and "submit" to Islam.

Not only is it in the Koran to slay the pagans (actually, numerous passages about slaying Jews as well), but the Koran provides numerous directions on how to go about this killing...directions on how to cut off their hands, how to slice them at the neck, etc.

Gruesome, that's what the Koran is. It is a manual for war, murder and mayhem.

Any Muslim who does not follow what the Koran teaches is a heretic, plain and simple. That means all the so-called peace-lovers and moderates that everyone loves to mention every time the topic of violent Islamofascism is raised.

As if all these peace-loving Muslims are going to make the world a safer place.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1502188' date='Apr 17 2008, 09:28 PM']Stop believing everything you hear in the media. As a former Journalism Student, I know there is only about 6 corporations that own 80 per cent of the popular media in the world. If they want you to have a certain world bent, they give that bent - like All Muslims are evil sociopaths ready to blow themselves up to destroy you good Christians!

If you actually believe the above sentence, you need to realize, most Muslims are like most Catholics, honest men and women who love God, and wouldn't do anything like that, and they avoid mad men like the leaders of the Taliban and Al Qeada like the plague, like we avoid madmen like David Koresh.[/quote]

Muslims are just like Catholics. Really?

How many Muslims died around the world died in the aftermath of the Danish cartoons? What about the teddy bear case where they wanted to kill the teacher over the name of a teddy bear? In a similar situation Catholics would have done the same thing, right? Get real.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='prose' post='1500195' date='Apr 15 2008, 05:53 PM']I think overall, religion as a whole will be blamed.[/quote]

I agree.

[Deb]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1502976' date='Apr 18 2008, 09:53 PM']First of all, Mohammed's deity is called "Allah", not God. Allah is not an Arabic translation of the name we call the Creator of All Things. Allah is some thing completely different who bears no resemblance whatsoever to the One, True God.

Secondly, the word "Islam" means "Submission". Period. Submission to Allah. Submission to Sharia. Submission to the Koran. Submission to Islamic culture. Submission to the pure model of Islamic life, Mohammed himself.[/quote]


Well, Actually, Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, which was the language of Jesus. In the Islamic faith, their God does bear some resemblence to our GOD. They do consider themselves children of Abraham and they do believe in our prophets.

The word Islam means, "submission to the will of God." Period. A Muslim is one who submits to the will of God. If you read the Quran it seems like Muhammed just took the words of the bible and of Jesus, twisted them around a bit and restated them and said he got them from the Angel Gabriel. The Quran really is a very peaceful book.

It is always people who commit horrible sins, not the religion. The key here is to get all the good Muslims (which are the majority) to take down the bad ones. They have the power to do that.

I think anything that happens in which Catholics strike back. The Pope will be blamed. Hatred of Catholics will never cease and our Lord told us we would be persecuted and hated.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Deb

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Deb' post='1503402' date='Apr 19 2008, 01:34 PM']Well, Actually, Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, which was the language of Jesus. In the Islamic faith, their God does bear some resemblence to our GOD. They do consider themselves children of Abraham and they do believe in our prophets.[/quote]
No they believe in some of the prophets, including two not found in Christianity nor Judaism, and said prophet's teachings except completely different from Judaism and Christianity on the basis that 'WE', (including the Jews), had skewed the Prophets words, and Allah was the name of the 'King' god in the informal pagan pantheon in Makkah before Islam came about. He was the God of teh moon or lunar cycles, can't remember which. Allah is not Aramaic its Arabic.

[quote]The word Islam means, "submission to the will of God." Period.[/quote]
Wrong, thats only the context its used in. It simply means submission. The same way conversionin Catholicism is used in the context of changing of one's heart from sin to Christ, whereas the word on its own simply means cahnge from one thing to another.

[quote]A Muslim is one who submits to the will of God. If you read the Quran it seems like Muhammed just took the words of the bible and of Jesus, twisted them around a bit and restated them and said he got them from the Angel Gabriel. The Quran really is a very peaceful book.[/quote]
Excuse my language but thats bull, The Porphet Muhammad basically tried to rewrite both testiments, and left the rest to tradition. For example, Abarham was to sacrifice Ishmael and NOT Isaac to God before the Angel stopped him. The reason Islam gives us for the difference is that Isaac's mother was jealous of Ishmael's mother and tried to control events so that it would be remembered that Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac instead of Ishmael. By making a difference here, Muhammad is undermining both Christianity and Judaism as lies. Despite the fact all the prophets believed that Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. The Qu'ran has alot of violence, (in the sense that you must perform violence, not just violent history wrote down), I can call it a religion, but a religion of peace? No.

[quote]It is always people who commit horrible sins, not the religion.[/quote]
Now here is the first sense you;ve made. However, by their fruits you shall know them, the Qu'ran teaches violence, especially against women.

[quote]The key here is to get all the good Muslims (which are the majority) to take down the bad ones. They have the power to do that.[/quote]
Good Muslims in our eyes, are the bad Muslims, in Allah's eyes.

[quote]I think anything that happens in which Catholics strike back. The Pope will be blamed. Hatred of Catholics will never cease and our Lord told us we would be persecuted and hated.[/quote]
This is true, whatever happens, God willing nothing will, we'll still be blamed. They're still hammering us over the Galileo thing... sheesh

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1503083' date='Apr 18 2008, 10:38 PM']Muslims are just like Catholics. Really?

How many Muslims died around the world died in the aftermath of the Danish cartoons? What about the teddy bear case where they wanted to kill the teacher over the name of a teddy bear? In a similar situation Catholics would have done the same thing, right? Get real.[/quote]
How many people died at Jonestown?
How many people died at Waco?
How many people died because of a Christian Religious Cult in the United States?
How many Catholics died during the bombing of the British Parliment during the November the 7th plot?

Extremists of a religion will do insane things because they want to prove the religion right, and everybody's else's religion wrong.

Most muslims are like Most Catholics. Most would go, the person who straps bombs on their body to die in a Jihad motivated by Osama Bin Laden are insane, as is Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and Al Qeada.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote][date='Apr 19 2008,
Well, Actually, Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, which was the language of Jesus. In the Islamic faith, their God does bear some resemblence to our GOD. They do consider themselves children of Abraham and they do believe in our prophets.[/quote]

I don't care if they call him Bananas. He. Is. Not. The. Same. God.

And no, Deb. He doesn't bear any resemblance to the One True God. You apparently are unfamiliar with both the Koran and the Hadith. Not to mention the supreme model of pure Islam himself, Mohammed.

[quote]The word Islam means, "submission to the will of God." Period. A Muslim is one who submits to the will of God.[/quote]

Islam means "Submission". It is one word and that is the translation. When applied to a larger theological context, it refers to submission to Allah. But it MEANS "submission".

[quote]If you read the Quran it seems like Muhammed just took the words of the bible and of Jesus, twisted them around a bit and restated them and said he got them from the Angel Gabriel. The Quran really is a very peaceful book.[/quote]

Deb, you don't know what you are talking about. You really don't. A peaceful book? I would laugh if it weren't so sad. The Koran is a manual for war, murder, subjugation, oppression and general mayhem. Mohammed himself (the supreme model of pure Islam) was a war-mongerer and a pedophile. Please get informed and educate yourself before making blanket statements that are not factual. There are people who are reading this forum who are taking what they read and learn here seriously. You need to be informed and accurate. If you don't know something, say you don't know it. But don't make blanket false statements especially in the face of people who are CLEARLY more educated on the topic than you are.

[quote]It is always people who commit horrible sins, not the religion.[/quote]

In the case of Islam it's the religion that teaches them to hate (don't hate, appreciate). The Koran is full of insults and slurs against Christian and Jews ("apes and pigs") and guidelines on who, when, where, and how to kill.

[quote]The key here is to get all the good Muslims (which are the majority) to take down the bad ones. They have the power to do that.[/quote]

No, Deb. The key here is for YOU to stop making blanket statements not based on fact. Who cares that there are nice Muslims? And what have they done YET? Nothing. You think the fact that there are some good Muslims will change anything the MILLIONS of violents ones are doing all over this world? Tell that to the people suffering in untold and inhuman ways in Darfur. Go there, Deb and tell them not to worry because there are some good Muslims somewhere. Tell that to the mothers and fathers who have watched their children burned alive, the women who have been rounded up systematically and raped, the old men who have had their arms and legs chopped off, the boys who have had their testicles cut off or injected with a sterilizing chemical. Tell them to ignore the agony they suffer and the hell they look in the face every day, because somewhere there are some good Muslims.

[Socrates]

Who will the world blame?

Well, it depends, yet in the event of such an act of Islamic aggression, you can bet your bottom dollar that The World (at least in the sense of all worldly, educated, correct-thinking, enlightened, sensitive individuals who Matter, such as TV talking heads, politicians, hollywood actors and popstars - in short everybody except a few benighted, bigoted Red-state gun-totin' bible-thumpin' gay-hatin' neanderthals and irrelevant pre-VatII ultra-uberconservative trad Catholics) will blame anything and everything but the Islamists themselves.

For many Experts and other Educated, Sensitive Persons (including many "Progressive Catholics"), the Pope himself will bear the chief blame for his uspeakable crime of being not sufficiently Sensitive towards the Religion of Peace. (See, Islamic terrorist types are extremely sensitive souls, and not bending over backwards to be Sensitive to their demands will force these Peaceful folks to blow stuff up). Undoubtably, this will prove that he did not do enough to "outreach" to his Peaceful Sensitive Islamic bethren. No doubt, His Holiness did not apologize for the Crusades nearly enough times, and his opposition to gay marriage and women priests no doubt made those sensitive folks restless.

Most enlightened Secularists of the Richard Dawkins school will blame generic Religion in General. See, Catholics, Muslims, and the like are all "Theists" and are all really the same. See, when folks start believing in God, they inevitably start blowing up buildings and killing people, an' stuff. If only more had been done by the government to oppose the teaching of Intelligent Design in Kansas schools!
Atheism makes people peaceful and non-violent. Just ask Joseph Stalin or Pol Pot.

True Bible-believin' Christians who have allowed the Word of Jack Chick to enter into their minds and hearts will differ somewhat in their opinion, of course. Since the pagan followers of the Muslim Moon-god and the Romish Whore of Babylon are obviously in cahoots, it might not make much sense for the pagan Muslims to attack their ring-leader the Pope. However, no doubt Chick in his Infinite Wisdom can explain the apocalyptic conspiracy at hand in his comic books, but it won't really matter, since all real Bible-believers will be whisked away to heaven while their devilish enemies are Left Behind to kill each other off.

For others of a more Progressive ilk, Bush, and perhaps America in General, will bear the blame. See, their Imperialist Aggression drove the gentle practioners of The Religion of Peace to violently attack the Papacy known for speaking against America attacking Iraq. Make sense? Of course! When in doubt, Blame Bush!

Still for many other Educated, Enlightened folk, the Root Cause of the attacks will be Capitalism, and the resulting Economic Disparity between the Haves and Have-nots, thus forcing the Have-nots (such as oil billionaire Osama bin Laden) in their economic desparation to attack their Have oppressors (such as the Pope). We will be sternly reminded how these attacks could have been avoided if only we had more global socialism in place, and done more to prevent Global Warming. (See, Global Warming is at the root of all terrorist attacks and other evil. I actually read that last year in an article in Yahoo! News, citing the "findings" of a couple of British "climate experts" - or perhaps they were "terrorism experts," I honestly forget - the important part is they were sufficienctly Marxist in their outlook to be bestowed the title of "Expert." Seriously, I didn't make that one up!)
More centralized globalist communism will solve all the world's problems if only we give it a chance!

Edited April 20, 2008 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lena' post='1502755' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:12 PM']Islam means submission [i]to God[/i], not the way you're using it.[/quote]
Yes, and to the Muslim, Submission to Allah means submission to his Law as revealed to his Prophet Mohammed in the Koran.
For the Muslim, there is absolutely no disctinction between religion and the secular world. They see the mission of Islam to put the world under Islamic Law, and there is no peace until this is accomplished.
Christians and Jews who have not converted to Islam are seen as living in willful defiance of God, and are to be under Muslim domination until they convert.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1503669' date='Apr 19 2008, 08:03 PM']Yes, and to the Muslim, Submission to Allah means submission to his Law as revealed to his Prophet Mohammed in the Koran.
For the Muslim, there is absolutely no disctinction between religion and the secular world. They see the mission of Islam to put the world under Islamic Law, and there is no peace until this is accomplished.
Christians and Jews who have not converted to Islam are seen as living in willful defiance of God, and are to be under Muslim domination until they convert.[/quote]


But nevermind all this. Deb and the others who refuse to read the Koran, the commentary on Islam, and the history of Islamic domination since its inception--so as to educate themselves on the facts--are going to take my advice and go to Darfur to assure those poor, tortured souls that there are some "good Muslims" running about and they needn't worry about the "radicals" because the peaceful Muslims are going to straighten them out.

Nevermind the fact that after 1,400 years the "peaceful Muslims" haven't straightened out a single beaver dam radical yet as they have continued from continent to continent [b]making war, looting, oppressing, mutilating the genitals of little girls, committing genocide and ethnic cleansing so as to make room for more Arabs, committing pedophilia and polygemy, enslaving, murdering, raping, and forcing conversions to Islam at the tip of a sword[/b].

I'm probably just overreacting. Man, facts can be so irritating!