Dispensing Contraceptives

[picchick]

[quote name='kujo' post='1516141' date='May 1 2008, 04:54 PM']Word. Would it be morally permissible to hold a gun to someone's head in an effort to convert them to Christianity?[/quote]

I don't think that would be a good idea.....

1) they would agree only for their life their heart would not be in it
2) I am sure that Jesus would look down upon it
3) Someone would have to bail you out of jail.

[kujo]

[quote name='picchick' post='1516180' date='May 1 2008, 06:16 PM'] I don't think that would be a good idea.....

1) they would agree only for their life their heart would not be in it
2) I am sure that Jesus would look down upon it
3) Someone would have to bail you out of jail.[/quote]

We are in complete accord, Picchick. You are 100% right...the ends do not justify the means.

And I'm a poor college student who lives with other poor college studens...there would be no bailing me out of anywhere.

[kujo]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1516161' date='May 1 2008, 06:06 PM']Well, since I generally don't experience discomfort in social situations unless it's excessively polite company, I doubt it would be a problem...it's the polite conversations that I can't handle.
Well, since my mom is a nurse...and well, my extended family doesn't really help things...I mean, everything about how bodies work is so matter of fact that I never really picked up on how to be embarrassed by it...Although, my mom DOES get a lil upset when I can't stop burping...[/quote]

MissScripture, would you like to come over for dinner? If you can handle burps, insults between me and my sister Katie (we tend to playfully make fun of each other...ALWAYS!), discussion of touchy subjects (politics, religion, my mom's desire to find a man...) and the occasion nose-picking, you'd fit right in.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='kujo' post='1516192' date='May 1 2008, 05:20 PM']MissScripture, would you like to come over for dinner? If you can handle burps, insults between me and my sister Katie (we tend to playfully make fun of each other...ALWAYS!), discussion of touchy subjects (politics, religion, my mom's desire to find a man...) and the occasion nose-picking, you'd fit right in.[/quote]
Politics I might not join in on, but it won't bother me if other discuss it...the rest sounds kinda like home (well, minus your mother wanting to find a man...I'm sure my dad would be offended if my mom ever said anything of that sort, since they're married...lol)

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1515828' date='May 1 2008, 11:30 AM']Not necessarily. I thought that would be possible as well, but the pill alters the cervical mucus, so you can't tell from that sign if you're ovulating or not. I'm not sure if it also effects temps, as I didn't check temps. BTW, the cervical mucus can be really hard to read when coming off the pill, too. I didn't show signs of fertility even though I was ovulating when I came off the pill.[/quote]

Interesting... I'd heard through a priest I know of a couple that practiced NFP while the wife on taking contraception for some medical reason. Maybe they used the thermal method and something else (aren't there like 3 or 4 methods?) that isn't affected so much by the pill.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1515851' date='May 1 2008, 12:22 PM']I agree with you that we shouldn't use Birth Control, as it is a way we play God. We decided how many children we have, rather than letting God do the decisions for us. Would he give us any situation that we couldn't handle, No.

However, I don't think if people choose to do that, we should stand in their way. As I said - I would say, It is against my beliefs to provide you this prescription, so where would you like me to send it?

Forcing people to do what God would have them to do is wrong, because it takes away a persons free will, a gift God gave all of us.[/quote]

The point I was disputing was you saying that avoidance of contraceptives "is really not essential in the Christian Faith."

Edited May 1, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[picchick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1516218' date='May 1 2008, 06:16 PM']Interesting... I'd heard through a priest I know of a couple that practiced NFP while the wife on taking contraception for some medical reason. Maybe they used the thermal method and something else (aren't there like 3 or 4 methods?) that isn't affected so much by the pill.[/quote]


Yeah there are several different ones that you can use together or separate:

One is the Calendar methon or rhythm method. This is where the menstrual cycles are recorded over several months. Then the woman assumes the ovulation occurs 14 days before the start of her period. It is better to use this with one of the other methods because ovulation can pretty much occur anytime.

Another is the Basal body temp. The theory behind this is that the woman's temp will drop before ovulation. It is pretty reliable.

Then you've got the Billings method that is the mucus one. This one to me is so interesting because of all the physiology behind it. I won't get into though cause some people might think its gross.

So the pill really shouldn't be used the the last one for sure considering that the hormones will really mess everything up.

Also, you should take into consideration that the pill holds the hormones steady to prevent ovulation. On the days that the woman has her period is the "placebo" pills. This allows the hormones to drop and menstration follows. The temperature changes reflects, I believe the fluctuation in hormones. I don't know how they did any of the methods if the woman's hormones aren't changing. I mean I guess that they could have but the woman would not have been ovulating so there would be no ovulation detected on her records.

I have pictures if you guys need it. Man I wish I had a chalk board!

[Alycin]

Thanks everyone for the advice about my girl problems.

And Miss Scripture, Imma PM you now..

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1515903' date='May 1 2008, 11:15 AM']Your line of reasoning is like: I don't believe abortion is right, but you should still be able to decide yourself. I don't believe contraception is right or even healthy, but go ahead and harm yourself. If we loved our neighbor, if we cared about the state of their soul and their bodily health here on earth, we would try a little harder to help them out. If I see my kid is about to reach for the hot stove burner, should I let him, after all, I don't want to limit his freedom... Yes, God has given us free will. But, we are not to stand idly by, we are the ones who are called to help people to use that free will in following good. Not doing so is a lack of charity. Spiritual work of mercy - admonish the sinner...of course in a pastoral and hence effective way.

I'm not sure where some are getting the sense that the guy is trying to draw attention to himself.[/quote]

Rights are messy things.

[quote]And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

[b]He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.[/b]

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.[/quote]

The Lords words, not mine.

If people without the holy spirit want to play God, then let them play God. God won't approve, and they will face the spiritual and physical consequences of their sins. Anybody who thinks it is okay to play God in a thousand areas in life have already taken the mark of the beast, thinking they know better than God. So let God bring judgment for their sins.

[kujo]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1516373' date='May 1 2008, 11:06 PM']Rights are messy things.
The Lords words, not mine.

If people without the holy spirit want to play God, then let them play God. God won't approve, and they will face the spiritual and physical consequences of their sins. Anybody who thinks it is okay to play God in a thousand areas in life have already taken the mark of the beast, thinking they know better than God. So let God bring judgment for their sins.[/quote]

Dude, you are brutal. I'm glad you're not Jesus, or else we would all end up in hell like we deserve!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1516017' date='May 1 2008, 01:45 PM']Amen sister. In the ideal world, I would agree; however, in our pluralistic country, where different moral views course through the veins of our cities, we must be vigilant not to place the power to impose ANY morality--right or wrong-- on people who disagree. This is an extreme example, but what if a Muslim were elected to the presidency and felt it would be "moral" for women to cover their faces up? We would all disagree, of course, but he would be trying to force his moral views on us. The natural counter-argument would be to highlight our stance against abortion being an imposition of the same sort. I would say that abortion is different because it deals with the murder of a human, while birth control is wrong, but physically harms no one.[/quote]


Abortion is legal pacifically because morality has been taken out of the equation. Good and just laws are based in morality. Perhaps one day you will see how foolish your stance is, I will pray for that day.

Peace in Christ.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1516222' date='May 1 2008, 05:28 PM']The point I was disputing was you saying that avoidance of contraceptives "is really not essential in the Christian Faith."[/quote]

Yeah, I did say that. I stand correct it.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='kujo' post='1516375' date='May 1 2008, 09:08 PM']Dude, you are brutal. I'm glad you're not Jesus, or else we would all end up in hell like we deserve![/quote]

Great news, I'm not Jesus. I try to be like him. I listen to his spirit, and I take stands when it is appropriate.

I just like pointing out that God's word tells us to let people be like they are, but to invite them into a relationship with Christ. If someone who follows all the rules, but doesn't have a relationship with Christ, what good is that? Now, once you have a relationship with Jesus, and you talk to him, and he talks to you, then you will start to obey the rules just out of love and passion for Jesus. You can't help but to follow the rules, because you love Jesus and Jesus loves you!

So, I don't think everybody is going to hell. Many people in the world are falling in love with Jesus right now, and they are learning to hear his voice, and not obey the rules out of obligation, but out of celebration! It is a truly amazing the kind of walk with God you can have, when you take yourself and your ego out of the equation.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1516377' date='May 1 2008, 11:09 PM']Abortion is legal pacifically because morality has been taken out of the equation. Good and just laws are based in morality. Perhaps one day you will see how foolish your stance is, I will pray for that day.

Peace in Christ.[/quote]

I think abortion is legal because people fail to see the fact that the fetus/unborn baby is, in fact, a human entitled to the same rights and protections that the rest of us have. I think if everyone accepted that, then they would believe that abortion is wrong because they already accept that murder (or the taking of another human's life) is wrong.

I don't think my stance is foolish, but I appreciate the prayers anyway. Thanks

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1516386' date='May 1 2008, 11:20 PM']Great news, I'm not Jesus. I try to be like him. I listen to his spirit, and I take stands when it is appropriate.

I just like pointing out that God's word tells us to let people be like they are, but to invite them into a relationship with Christ. If someone who follows all the rules, but doesn't have a relationship with Christ, what good is that? Now, once you have a relationship with Jesus, and you talk to him, and he talks to you, then you will start to obey the rules just out of love and passion for Jesus. You can't help but to follow the rules, because you love Jesus and Jesus loves you!

So, I don't think everybody is going to hell. Many people in the world are falling in love with Jesus right now, and they are learning to hear his voice, and not obey the rules out of obligation, but out of celebration! It is a truly amazing the kind of walk with God you can have, when you take yourself and your ego out of the equation.[/quote]

Oh. That's not what you said before. My mistake. I feel you there. Good stuff!

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='kujo' post='1516434' date='May 1 2008, 10:15 PM']I think abortion is legal because people fail to see the fact that the fetus/unborn baby is, in fact, a human entitled to the same rights and protections that the rest of us have. I think if everyone accepted that, then they would believe that abortion is wrong because they already accept that murder (or the taking of another human's life) is wrong.

I don't think my stance is foolish, but I appreciate the prayers anyway. Thanks
Oh. That's not what you said before. My mistake. I feel you there. Good stuff![/quote]

I have an attitude, Be an example, not a finger pointer. I allow people to live anyway they want, while living the life Christ has decided for me. I have to go through some awful stuff, but in the end, the rewards are eternal. I don't want anybody to have to live through the life I live.

Beyond the eternal benefits, there are some amazing temporal benefits.

Now, I know I am about to open a whole can of worms with what I am about to say, but I think it is very appropriate I share at this time.

Ritalin is really a poison. It is way over prescribed to parents who are just plain lazy.

As a child, I was active, as most Boys are. Yes, to the ones who have been calling me a girl for a couple of weeks now, I am not, LOL!

Now because I have an really wild imagination and lots of energy as a boy, the educators told my mom I had ADHD (not true as this is a permanent condition - and a recent psycho-educational assessment ruled me out - you don't grow out of ADHD, ever!).

I did develop a Learning Disability, I had an awful short term memory, until one day, I read how Ritalin actually causes short term memory brain damage. . .

I know I didn't have ADHD, but was forced to take 'medication' anyways. I asked God - Lord, I never made a choice to take Ritalin, I had to obey my mother. So repair the brain damage this has caused me, as I shouldn't have to pay for the sins of the people who forced me to take this poison.

Guess what, before then, I was having a good day remember two or three numbers out of a phone number in a row. Now, on good days I can remember each number of a phone number if I listen to it, all ten digits!

Serving God has benefits in the temporal, and serving God certainly has benefits in the eternal.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1516434' date='May 1 2008, 10:15 PM']I think abortion is legal because people fail to see the fact that the fetus/unborn baby is, in fact, a human entitled to the same rights and protections that the rest of us have. I think if everyone accepted that, then they would believe that abortion is wrong because they already accept that murder (or the taking of another human's life) is wrong.[/quote]


Honestly your not thinking, and your stance lays on sinking sand, right and wrong imply morality. Without morality there is no right and wrong. You can not argue against laws based on morality, and immorality yet agrue for laws based on right and wrong. Right is just another word for moral and just, and wrong is just another word for immoral and unjust. It isnt going to matter a hill of beans if people see the preborns as human or nonhuman as long as they lack the morals to end the immorality of killing babies. Your argument that preborn children should be given rights is a moral one. There are in fact many pro aborts, most in power that know the child exist and is human yet very much lack the morals to make such a immoral practice illegal. For the ones that fail to see that the children are human those people lack the morality to see that fact much like persons who lack the morality to see that blacks where fully human, and not property of another man.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1516126' date='May 1 2008, 09:47 PM']You can spend TOO MUCH time on an NFP board? [/quote]
Well, I'm a geek. And I'm related to 2 OB/GYNs, so I'm used to talking about things like this.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1516218' date='May 1 2008, 11:16 PM']Interesting... I'd heard through a priest I know of a couple that practiced NFP while the wife on taking contraception for some medical reason. Maybe they used the thermal method and something else (aren't there like 3 or 4 methods?) that isn't affected so much by the pill.[/quote]
I think Picchick answered this well. Except for the rhythm method, they all use markers determined by the change in hormones. Now, I suppose they could use the rhythm method while on the pill.


[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 2 2008, 12:06 AM']Then you've got the Billings method that is the mucus one. This one to me is so interesting because of all the physiology behind it. I won't get into though cause some people might think its gross.[/quote]
Yeah, it really fascinates me (and I think I amuse my BOM instructor sometimes, too). Man, why doesn't Phatmass still have their NFP group?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']One is the Calendar methon or rhythm method. This is where the menstrual cycles are recorded over several months. Then the woman assumes the ovulation occurs 14 days before the start of her period. It is better to use this with one of the other methods because ovulation can pretty much occur anytime.[/quote]

Yeah, that's the one that gives NFP a bad name I thought this method was avoided entirely due to its lack of reliability. They should call it the Windows method (sorry, geek joke there).

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']Another is the Basal body temp. The theory behind this is that the woman's temp will drop before ovulation. It is pretty reliable.

Then you've got the Billings method that is the mucus one. This one to me is so interesting because of all the physiology behind it. I won't get into though cause some people might think its gross.[/quote]

Eww... boogers.

Now, another interesting thing I also heard during one of our Theology of the Body discussions was that the science behind NFP is essentially the same science behind contraception. Seems to make sense, and good to know for those who think NFP can't be as effective as the pill.

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']So the pill really shouldn't be used the the last one for sure considering that the hormones will really mess everything up.[/quote]

Agree. Hormones [i]really[/i] mess everything up.

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']Also, you should take into consideration that the pill holds the hormones steady to prevent ovulation. On the days that the woman has her period is the "placebo" pills. This allows the hormones to drop and menstration follows. The temperature changes reflects, I believe the fluctuation in hormones. I don't know how they did any of the methods if the woman's hormones aren't changing. I mean I guess that they could have but the woman would not have been ovulating so there would be no ovulation detected on her records.[/quote]

Ya know what... now that I take the time to think about what the priest said... the couple abstained from sex entirely while she was on the pill. She was prescribed for medical reasons and since they had no way of knowing if fertilization might occur and didn't want to have contraceptive sex (even though it wouldn't have been sinful by Church teaching due to the medical need), they chose to abstain until whenever she no longer needed the prescription.

Quite admirable, I have to say.

Sorry for the misinformation.

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']I have pictures if you guys need it. Man I wish I had a chalk board![/quote]

I actually find all this rather fascinating... if anyone thinks it's gross, they should take it up with God. It's interesting how much of life revolves around cycles... seasons, animal migrations, the death and life cycle of everything from insects to human civilizations, and even our daily routines, the Liturgy of the Hours, and the Church calendar. There's a fascinating mix of simplicity and complexity in it all.

That's a little peek inside my head at 9:14am...

Edited May 2, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1516577' date='May 2 2008, 02:14 PM']Now, another interesting thing I also heard during one of our Theology of the Body discussions was that the science behind NFP is essentially the same science behind contraception. Seems to make sense, and good to know for those who think NFP can't be as effective as the pill.[/quote]
Now if I could just find a doctor who understood that. . .
[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1516577' date='May 2 2008, 02:14 PM']Ya know what... now that I take the time to think about what the priest said... the couple abstained from sex entirely while she was on the pill. She was prescribed for medical reasons and since they had no way of knowing if fertilization might occur and didn't want to have contraceptive sex (even though it wouldn't have been sinful by Church teaching due to the medical need), they chose to abstain until whenever she no longer needed the prescription.[/quote] Quite admirable.

[kujo]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1516450' date='May 2 2008, 12:33 AM']I have an attitude, Be an example, not a finger pointer. I allow people to live anyway they want, while living the life Christ has decided for me. I have to go through some awful stuff, but in the end, the rewards are eternal. I don't want anybody to have to live through the life I live.

Beyond the eternal benefits, there are some amazing temporal benefits.

Now, I know I am about to open a whole can of worms with what I am about to say, but I think it is very appropriate I share at this time.

Ritalin is really a poison. It is way over prescribed to parents who are just plain lazy.

As a child, I was active, as most Boys are. Yes, to the ones who have been calling me a girl for a couple of weeks now, I am not, LOL!

Now because I have an really wild imagination and lots of energy as a boy, the educators told my mom I had ADHD (not true as this is a permanent condition - and a recent psycho-educational assessment ruled me out - you don't grow out of ADHD, ever!).

I did develop a Learning Disability, I had an awful short term memory, until one day, I read how Ritalin actually causes short term memory brain damage. . .

I know I didn't have ADHD, but was forced to take 'medication' anyways. I asked God - Lord, I never made a choice to take Ritalin, I had to obey my mother. So repair the brain damage this has caused me, as I shouldn't have to pay for the sins of the people who forced me to take this poison.

Guess what, before then, I was having a good day remember two or three numbers out of a phone number in a row. Now, on good days I can remember each number of a phone number if I listen to it, all ten digits!

Serving God has benefits in the temporal, and serving God certainly has benefits in the eternal.[/quote]

I rejoice at the healing that God's love has given to you in your life, my friend. You will find no one more gracious about this sort of thing than I. I, too, have experienced God's great gifts and blessings and am a firm believer in following Mary's [i]fiat[/i] in my life.

As for your "be an example" thing, I agree too. St. Francis of Assisi said "Preach the Gospel at all times...when necessary, use words." That doesn't mean we are to sit back, live our lives and let our brothers and sisters continue in sin without a little intervention. I don't think it's appropriate for us to condemn and convict people we don't know; however, I do think that relational ministry can provide us with great opportunities to evangelize. It's those times where we can share about God's love and desire for our hearts, the blessings that you and I have been given. Yet, up until and after those times, we are to pray for and allow people to make their own decisions.

My old Youth Minister once told me that evangelization is the process of planting seeds of God's love. We plant the seeds and wait for God to rain down and harvest them.

Peace, my friend.
[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1516481' date='May 2 2008, 01:32 AM']Honestly your not thinking, and your stance lays on sinking sand, right and wrong imply morality. Without morality there is no right and wrong. You can not argue against laws based on morality, and immorality yet agrue for laws based on right and wrong. Right is just another word for moral and just, and wrong is just another word for immoral and unjust. It isnt going to matter a hill of beans if people see the preborns as human or nonhuman as long as they lack the morals to end the immorality of killing babies. Your argument that preborn children should be given rights is a moral one. There are in fact many pro aborts, most in power that know the child exist and is human yet very much lack the morals to make such a immoral practice illegal. For the ones that fail to see that the children are human those people lack the morality to see that fact much like persons who lack the morality to see that blacks where fully human, and not property of another man.[/quote]

I think we are arguing for the same thing, but from different perspectives. I find nothing that you say [i]wrong[/i] but I do look at things differently. Perhaps it's because of the way I think (I am a very logical and scientifically minded person), but I see babies as human beings because of the medical evidence that we've all seen. I believe that God has revealed that information to me in the way that I would understand and take to heart. All the other stuff, about the preciousness of all human life, the immorality of the lifestyle that leads up to needing most abortions...all of that has been revealed and kneeded into my heart over time. I don't disagree with those things, for they are the bedrock of my faith; however, I think that the laws against abortion needn't reflect any more or less morality than our laws against murder.