Healthcare And War

[dairygirl4u2c]

so.. that other thread said we as a nation are like at twenty something rank in life expectancy. other countires live to be like 80 whereas we live to be 75. considering that we were once first in life expectancy, that indiates there's nothing inherently wrong with US citizens that they'd live shorter.... it's more that health care is an issue. 75% of uninsured can't affored it etc.
consider all that life lost.... five years times 300 million in the population. that's 1.5 billion years lost, if you say more than 300 million cause we have lives from the past, then at most maybe 3 billio years lost. that's approximately 20 to 40 million lives, if you were to divide it as if you could take the 3 billio years divided by 75.

and... we go to war in iraq, and over a million iraqi's have died to date.

the number one priority on the CC agenda is life. if a big majority thinks abortion should be allowed in the first semester... then realistically, asuming you won't force banning it.... of the 30 million aborted since roe, since 90 percent are done in the first rimester... 3 million babies have died that had a realistic chance of not dying.

how can it be intrinsically wrong to vote for someone despite them being prochoice, if it seems the issues not goi to change... and other issues of life will change?
how is it not intrinsically wrong to vote for someone who doesn't care if you're twenty years old and can't afford basic medical procedures? the number one issue is life, and this is a life issue.

the millio in iraq is close enough to the three million...but you also have all that medical life lost, and all the other wars.

granted, killing of babies is much worse than what were many times people who just couldn't afford health bc they were bad planners etc. but that's not always or usually the case. and iraq does have to do something to revolt to the evils there. but still, innocent lives have been lost in bad planning etc.

i think the board is blinded just on count of the fact that abortio probably isn't going to change and isn't something you have to vote on every time. but also considering all the other life issues that are overlooked, i find the mypic looking at abortion as outrageous, and based on stubborness unwilling to change views, to the only rational positios that can be had.... i mean, it's ratioal to view abortion as more important... but it's irrational to say that if it's not going to change, and there's othe rlife issues, that it's immoral to vote for the prochoice person despite them being prochoice.
peple tend to avoid this issue, that's why i think they are being irrational.

thoughts?

Edited May 12, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[CatherineM]

I have said repeatedly that I believe in supporting life from creation to natural death. I am pro-life, but I am also a realist. I only have so many hours in the day, and so much energy, so I put my time into things that I feel like I can actually make a difference in. I believe that if we are going to say that every child has a right to live, then we should back that up by making sure that they are fed, clothed, educated, and cared for.

[ironmonk]

Many of your items are way off.
- Saddam openly support terrorist acts.
- More Iraqi's died daily BEFORE we took Saddam out.
- The War met all criteria of Just War according to the Catechism, as the Church teaches that civil leaders have the responsibility of judging the criteria. Details will be in the following links....

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=14075"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=14075[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=72071&st=40&start=40"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...40&start=40[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=22309"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=22309[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=13954"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=13954[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1748"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1748[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61997&st=120"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...1997&st=120[/url]


Many people who claim they can't afford healthcare are wrong, they can afford it but they choose to have the latest car, the latest cell phone, all the cable tv stations, the latest high def plasma screens, etc...

Abortion is the killing of a completely innocent life. Thank God people didn't think like you do during the slavery era in our past. Abortion is the greatest evil on earth... 40 million babies are butchered a day worldwide... 4000 daily in the US alone. Give up... I don't think so. What if the first Christian's thought like that? They'd just give up their faith when Pagan Rome was slaugthering them.

You've got a lot to learn... maybe stop trying to stoke fires on here and attempt to learn.
A few other resources...
[url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url]
[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url]
[url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers/[/url]

God Bless,
ironmonk

[CatherineM]

Iron if you think all people who don't have insurance can't afford it, I truly hope that you are never confronted with a serious illness or life changing disability in yourself or your family. Just the medication that my husband takes costs $1200/month, and that's at Canadian pharmacy rates. My water aerobics instructor back in Florida had her health insurance rates go from 400 to 850 a month when she hit 50 years old. With my medical history, I can't get private health insurance in the US at any cost. The last quote I had was $1500, and it wouldn't cover any pre-existing conditions. To put it into car insurance terms, I'm like a 19 year old boy who's had his license suspended twice, totaled 3 cars, and had a DUI. When you have an injury or an illness, or simply do something stupid like get over 40 years old, the insurance company now considers you a bad risk, and makes you pay.

[CatherineM]

By the way, we don't own a car, a cell phone, or use cable TV, so that's not where our money is being wasted.

[picchick]

Abortion is a life issue. I vote based off that along with other life issues such as the war and euthanasia (which I believe is going to become big within the next 10 years)

Health is indeed a life issue. However, how many people in the US are willing to make healthy choices? This is will DRASTICALLY cut down on long term health problems that drain the system such as type II diabetes and heart disease.

How many people are willing to exericise and eat right? How many people are willing to give up their White Mochas with 500 calories and their McDonalds every day? How many people are willing to cut their portions in half when they go out to eat? How many people are willing to wear helmet and seat belts? How many people are willing to do any of this?

Living healthy cannot be dicated by the government. It is something that needs to be done on a personal level. The government I think can encourage it somehow through reimbursement perhaps but I am not good at this topic and I am not sure how that could be done.

However, it is my believe that if everyone as a whole were to live healthier lives, then the cost of health care would go down.

Next issue driving up health care: waste. Hospitals waste so much stuff. Some of it can be helped...others cannot. So many times I see nurses bring in WAY too many dressings for a dressing change and then they just sit in the room. The patient doesn't use them so then they get thrown away. Tape too. All that stuff costs money! Hospital personnel need to take what they need and this too will help lower health care costs.

Next issue: Basic hygiene. There is MRSA going around and one of the main reasons is lack of handwashing. This needs to be done in the hospital AND in the outside world. I cannot tell you how many people we have on isolation because of MRSA and VRE and ESBL. And I still see doctors and techs go in the room without gowns on! Do you know how expensive it is to have a patient on isolation? Again preventable.

My thoughts: So I think that health care could be made a whole lot more affordable if simple tasks were completed the right way. Furthermore, the government cannot force anyone to live healthier but they can encourage it. I think that hospitals need to be more proactive in infection control. I bet if all this were done then health care would be more affordable for all.

Edit: I think I digressed from the topic a bit.

Edited May 13, 2008 by picchick

[kujo]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1526322' date='May 12 2008, 09:53 PM']I have said repeatedly that I believe in supporting life from creation to natural death. I am pro-life, but I am also a realist. I only have so many hours in the day, and so much energy, so I put my time into things that I feel like I can actually make a difference in. I believe that if we are going to say that every child has a right to live, then we should back that up by making sure that they are fed, clothed, educated, and cared for.[/quote]

Exactly. We say "from the womb [b]to the[/b] tomb." That means from natural birth until natural death [i]and everything in between[/i]. As Catholics, me must advocate for improvements for the quality of life for all of God's children. The poor need to be tended to and the almost-poor need to be helped out.

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1526643' date='May 13 2008, 12:08 AM']Many people who claim they can't afford healthcare are wrong, they can afford it but they choose to have the latest car, the latest cell phone, all the cable tv stations, the latest high def plasma screens, etc...[/quote]

That's quite a sweeping generalization to make about the 40+ million people who don't have healthcare in this country (myself included). My dad was laid off the other day and my sisters and I were still on his insurance plan. So, if I got really sick or hurt myself in any way, I would be up the creek. And it's not because I have a plasma TV, an expensive cell phone (second hand is more accurate), lots of cable or a new car (I actually have NO car)...it's because most health insurance is dependent upon employment in this country. And that makes no freakin' sense!

[picchick]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1526643' date='May 12 2008, 11:08 PM']Many people who claim they can't afford healthcare are wrong, they can afford it but they choose to have the latest car, the latest cell phone, all the cable tv stations, the latest high def plasma screens, etc...[/quote]

Disagreed. I didn't see this at first. There are many people who are not covered by insurance because their jobs do not carry insurance for them. Take for example the migrant population. They do not have health insurance. Healthcare without insurance is expensive. A hospital bed...without care or treatments or interventions is about $1000. Multiply that by 3 days that is three thousand days. To start an IV it is about $150. Let say you need to have 1 IV for the 3 days. If you stay longer than three days that IV needs to be restarted. For IV push medication it is like $50 dollars...this is not including the price of the medication. Just the fact that a nurse needs to push the med. So lets say you are in that hospital bed and you are in a great deal of pain and you can have morphine every 2 hrs....24/2=12x$50=$600. Now there are many other expensives that I did not list. These are just a few...so your one day hospital stay comes out to $3,750 and then three days is $11,250. And most people can afford health care?


Did you know that children with medical problems usually max out their insurance plan by age four (i think that is the age)...after that it is out of pocket...

Most people cannot afford health care without insurance. And those without insurance are basically out of luck.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1526778' date='May 13 2008, 02:03 AM']Iron if you think all people who don't have insurance can't afford it,[/quote]

are you kidding me? Re-read my post and I did not even imply that all people can afford insurance.

It is very annoying when people read a post, and totally miss the context of what is written.
Let's take a look at the context....

"[b][u]Many [/u][/b]people who claim they can't afford healthcare are wrong" ... then the "latest" 'stuff'... this context shows that I'm only meaning those who could afford insurance and choose material luxuries instead.

Here are a few basic facts about individual insurance....
1) For someone under 30 who has not had any major problems, it's about $100 a month.
2) Insurance companies cannot drop you for having high claims
3) Insurance companies cannot raise your rates except for a small percentage yearly OR a new age braket.
4) If someone takes COBRA after having company paid insurance and uses all their COBRA up, any private insurance they approach must take them... this is a HIPAA law.

There are many people who make plenty of money and simply don't want to pay for insurance.... instead they spend $100/mo on cell phone, $115/mo on cable and internet, $600/mo on a new car, $250/mo. on credit card stuff they didn't need.... that's $1065/mo... which is plenty for most people.... not to mention God only knows how much they spend every weekend going out to bars.

Obviously I'm not talking about your situation. Some people really can't afford it... but there are many who say they can't when they spend all their money on luxury items.

Hospitals cannot turn people away for emergency care and hospital bills can never hurt one's credit. Someone who needs to go to the ER and racks up a $50,000 bill without insurance will still be able to get the care they need... they can pay it back at $40/month to keep the collectors from calling but it'll never affect their credit.

I'm head of IT at an insurance company... Your water aerobics instructor sounds like she is getting robbed... she should shop around... A healthy 50 year old woman at my company would pay about $350/mo. for private insurance (depending what part of FL she's in - but this would be ball park). She would save even more if she combined our traditional insurance with our HSA.
Our website: [url="http://www.AvalonHealthcare.com"]http://www.AvalonHealthcare.com[/url]
Right now, we're just in Florida, but we'll be expanding to PA in 2009.

If you're in the Tampa area and listen to [url="http://www.SpiritFM905.com"]http://www.SpiritFM905.com[/url] you'll hear our ad around 7:45 am as one of the birthday shout out sponsors.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='picchick' post='1526953' date='May 13 2008, 11:26 AM']Disagreed. I didn't see this at first. There are many people who are not covered by insurance because their jobs do not carry insurance for them. Take for example the migrant population. They do not have health insurance. Healthcare without insurance is expensive. A hospital bed...without care or treatments or interventions is about $1000. Multiply that by 3 days that is three thousand days. To start an IV it is about $150. Let say you need to have 1 IV for the 3 days. If you stay longer than three days that IV needs to be restarted. For IV push medication it is like $50 dollars...this is not including the price of the medication. Just the fact that a nurse needs to push the med. So lets say you are in that hospital bed and you are in a great deal of pain and you can have morphine every 2 hrs....24/2=12x$50=$600. Now there are many other expensives that I did not list. These are just a few...so your one day hospital stay comes out to $3,750 and then three days is $11,250. And most people can afford health care?
Did you know that children with medical problems usually max out their insurance plan by age four (i think that is the age)...after that it is out of pocket...

Most people cannot afford health care without insurance. And those without insurance are basically out of luck.[/quote]


Sorry, but your perception is wrong...

The migrant workers and illegal aliens just go to the ER and many never pay, they get the healthcare they need. I live in Florida, we have many migrant workers and illegal aliens... I see all of this first hand. What the dems and media would have you believe on the "news" is often skewed and far from the truth.

Many doctors will not charge people as much if they don't have insurance... and when it comes to getting drugs, they'll give out samples if they have them. There were multiple times in my life when I didn't have insurnace... doctors charged me a fraction of what they billed and gave me sample meds. One just has to ask what the uninsured patient fee is. Also, companies that offer insurance often offer "group insurance"... this is much more expensive than individual private insurance. I didn't know this when I was younger... but because of all the deception that is spewed on the news about the topic, I never even shopped for insurance... if I did, I would have been able to afford it easily, even when I was only making 18k a year.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[picchick]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1528981' date='May 14 2008, 10:36 PM']Hospitals cannot turn people away for emergency care and hospital bills can never hurt one's credit. Someone who needs to go to the ER and racks up a $50,000 bill without insurance will still be able to get the care they need... they can pay it back at $40/month to keep the collectors from calling but it'll never affect their credit.[/quote]
Quick disclaimer: I am not arguing with you on this point

This is sometimes what drives the cost of health care and insurance prices up. Many people who do not have health insurance (regardless of why) will use the ER for trivial reasons. And often the hospital absorbs the cost requiring them to raise their prices. There are people who pay the $40 dollars amount. But some people just cannot do that.

Health care needs to reformed somehow to keep this from happening.

Big helps would be what I menitoned before: healthy living.

Another thing I would like to add are these new clinics opening up in Walgreens and such. They are less expensive than the ER and I think that it will help make the ER more for what they are needed for: emergencies. It will also help those with little or no insurance get care at an affordable cost.

Meg

[ironmonk]

[quote name='kujo' post='1526937' date='May 13 2008, 10:59 AM']That's quite a sweeping generalization to make about the 40+ million people who don't have healthcare in this country (myself included). My dad was laid off the other day and my sisters and I were still on his insurance plan. So, if I got really sick or hurt myself in any way, I would be up the creek. And it's not because I have a plasma TV, an expensive cell phone (second hand is more accurate), lots of cable or a new car (I actually have NO car)...it's because most health insurance is dependent upon employment in this country. And that makes no freakin' sense![/quote]

How many insurance quotes have you gotten? Ever shop around for it?

You would not be up the creek. Read the reply to CM about the ER.

I went from about age 15 to 27 without insurance.... Have faith in God, not in insurance.

LIKE I POINTED OUT... CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT... YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T FIT THE "[b][u]MANY[/u][/b]" I WAS TALKING ABOUT.

Quality healthcare only exists in a free market. It makes no sense to you because you haven't researched it.

DO YOU really want a senator picking your doctor and saying what medical treatment you need or do not need?

People do not need to make a ton of money to afford insurance... they do need to get a job so they can pay for it... just like they have to pay for a roof over their head and a car to get around in...


People... PAY ATTENTION TO CONTEXT. ugh.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='picchick' post='1528992' date='May 14 2008, 11:46 PM']Quick disclaimer: I am not arguing with you on this point

This is sometimes what drives the cost of health care and insurance prices up. Many people who do not have health insurance (regardless of why) will use the ER for trivial reasons. And often the hospital absorbs the cost requiring them to raise their prices. There are people who pay the $40 dollars amount. But some people just cannot do that.

Health care needs to reformed somehow to keep this from happening.

Big helps would be what I menitoned before: healthy living.

Another thing I would like to add are these new clinics opening up in Walgreens and such. They are less expensive than the ER and I think that it will help make the ER more for what they are needed for: emergencies. It will also help those with little or no insurance get care at an affordable cost.

Meg[/quote]


I disagree about "reformed". We need to keep beuracrats away from our health.

Insurance companies only pay a percentage of what the doctor actually bills... Doctors are fine with taking less than what they bill.... In some cases, Aetna will only pay 40% on the dollar for a doctor/hospital bill.

Urgant care and Convienent care places are popping up and they are great... but I think the real problem is that people are not educated that they can negotiate their doctor bills or find a cheaper doctor.

My point was that there are many people who say they can't afford it when they can. I'm talking about healthy people... people who have real issues with paying for insurance can go to the free public health clinics. It would be nice if there were more of those around. But the major problem is that anything free gets abused by people who don't need free.

The biggest problem about any healthcare reform the government comes up with will be a huge waste and people will not get quality healthcare.

If the government gets involved in healthcare, you will see a rise in abortions.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Fidei Defensor]

Is it immoral to go to the hospital knowing fully well you can't pay and having no intention to pay in full in a timely fashion, and receive treatment?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1529011' date='May 15 2008, 12:08 AM']Is it immoral to go to the hospital knowing fully well you can't pay and having no intention to pay in full in a timely fashion, and receive treatment?[/quote]

I think there would be a difference between someone who really needs help, has no other choice, and can't afford it vs. someone looking for a free ride. The hospitals factor in these cases into their billing.

It is immorral for the person looking for the free ride when they can afford it.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[picchick]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1529004' date='May 14 2008, 11:03 PM']I disagree about "reformed". We need to keep beuracrats away from our health.

My point was that there are many people who say they can't afford it when they can. I'm talking about healthy people... people who have real issues with paying for insurance can go to the free public health clinics. It would be nice if there were more of those around. But the major problem is that anything free gets abused by people who don't need free.

The biggest problem about any healthcare reform the government comes up with will be a huge waste and people will not get quality healthcare.

If the government gets involved in healthcare, you will see a rise in abortions.[/quote]

I agree the government should stay out of healthcare because in my opinion they didn't go to school for health care and would put into place rules and regulations that would not help. The reform needs to be done internally with health care professionals leading the way...

Another thing you mentioned is free health clinics...here is the problem that deters people from those. 1) people who don't need them clog the system. 2) People must wait forever to be seen
3) There are not as many because they are government funded and truthfully, many healthcare professionals steer clear from that [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1529011' date='May 14 2008, 11:08 PM']Is it immoral to go to the hospital knowing fully well you can't pay and having no intention to pay in full in a timely fashion, and receive treatment?[/quote]
No. I would rather someone come to the hospital with a problem and not be able to pay now rather than later when it would become something worse and more expensive. For example, some one who has diabetes and they have a bad sore on their foot, I would rather than person come in with it as a sore rather than wait and then come in with half his foot black and rotting because he couldn't afford care. Believe me I saw that case...it was not pretty at all.

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1529045' date='May 14 2008, 11:28 PM']I think there would be a difference between someone who really needs help, has no other choice, and can't afford it vs. [b]someone looking for a free ride.[/b] The hospitals factor in these cases into their billing.

It is immorral for the person looking for the free ride when they can afford it.

God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]

agreed. I think he was mentioning the fact that they cannot pay and know that they will be unable to do so in the future...I could be wrong though.

[CatherineM]

Iron-I listen to SpiritFM over the internet almost everyday. I've been listening to that station since 1994, and couldn't give it up when I moved up here two years ago. However, 7:45 your time is 5:45am my time. My blood doesn't actually move that early in the morning.

Sorry I missed your MOST comment. I have truthfully never met someone who could afford insurance, and didn't have it. In your work, I'm sure you have seen much more of it that I would have access to. I have met many people in my life who complain about having money trouble, and they have a new car, a cell phone, full cable, etc. I'm not saying people shouldn't have those things. When I was a practicing attorney, I had such an expensive wardrobe that the thought of it now humiliates and angers me. No one plans to become permanently disabled at 30.

[dairygirl4u2c]

if there are people who struggle to pay for health insurance, and there are many who can't afford it....

100 a month is simply too much. a lot can't afford it, or it's too much that they should even try... and it's too much in that there's profits going to nothing but profits..
it's common sense the gov could do it more cheaper. not just cause the rich are paying for it, but cause people are not wasting their money on pointless insurance.
see that link in the other thread i created for more proof.

not saying insurance for all etc. but just do it right.
if that's not possibe bc of beuroacracy, then that's a considreation. they might go overboard, that's a good point.

anyway... instead of getting hung up on this "most" stuff, and stuff that's really beside the main point...
which by the say.. they say a third are rich and don't need it, a third don't want it, and a third an't afford it.. of those who can't get it. that's a significant number.

my main point is that if abortion is not going to change,,, this is all a life issue. you cant trump it with gay marriage unles you disagree that the life issue is not bad here.
and you can't get around at least teh theoyr that if aboriton isn't going to change, that we can focus on other things.
you can disagree if you don't thikn it's going to change, but you can't say it's a sin to vote for a prochoice depsite them prochoice all hte time.

Edited May 16, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[picchick]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1530722' date='May 16 2008, 06:30 PM']my main point is that if abortion is not going to change,,, this is all a life issue. you cant trump it with gay marriage unles you disagree that the life issue is not bad here.
and you can't get around at least teh theoyr that if aboriton isn't going to change, that we can focus on other things.
you can disagree if you don't thikn it's going to change, but you can't say it's a sin to vote for a prochoice depsite them prochoice all hte time.[/quote]

Aborition will change...not tomorrow...not overnight...but over time. That is why we vote pro-life because hopefully someday it will change overtime.

Health care is a life issue that we must take into consideration. However, abortion is a greater evil and thus must be considered first.

This is one reason why i am having trouble voting for someone.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't even know what the point of most of htis thread was about. we're talking about the "many" who could afford it but don't? instead of those who can't which is the point... and missing my main point about how it related to the issues of life. and how abortion and how it might change is debatable, at least to me.

i mean, i can see how it mitigates the problem of health insurance as an issue... but it's still missing the point.

and iron says i shouldn't post things like this, and learn etc etc, all while he's missing the point. which is typical of him. he is really the one who has a lot to learn. mostly in how to debate people.
i wish he'd debate me one on one some time, not trying to blame me for why he doesn't, when really it's cause he's such a coward, who does not want someone who will point out how he misses the point and calls him on his shi*t.

Edited May 16, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c