puellapaschalis Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Perpetualove - I think Hughey asked us to use the "Report" button if we wanted to draw something to the mods' attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary-Kathryn Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote name='Gemma' date='Jun 11 2008, 10:25 PM' post='1568868'] We're not to that point yet. Everything--all of the groundwork--has to be done before submitting the paperwork to the appropriate ordinary. The group has to be living together--living the rule--for some time before the submission of the rule and customary for diocesan approval. Fr. Gambari's book says that there is no blueprint for the establishment of a community, other than getting the following things together: rule, constitutions, aspirants, remunerative work. If the emerging charism is having a problem securing a facility, they can ask the ordinary's assistance. Such is part of the great frustration in making a new foundation. Every step has to be discerned. We can make out as many plans as we want, but, as I said, every step has to be discerned. I had been planning a cenobitic community for 20 years, but the Holy Ghost made a sudden right turn, and now we're assembling an eremetical charism-in-diaspora. I also cannot post my personal address due to familial safety concerns. I am in the Diocese of Charlotte, NC, though. Blessings, Gemma Since you have already been very public about your orders, gathered aspirants, and made plans I would think now the opportune time to talk to the diocese offcials so you can have their full support. That way perhaps they can give you full backing and maybe even help you get started! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote name='Mary-Kathryn' post='1570095' date='Jun 13 2008, 11:07 AM'][quote name='Gemma' post='1568868' date='Jun 11 2008, 10:25 PM'] We're not to that point yet. Everything--all of the groundwork--has to be done before submitting the paperwork to the appropriate ordinary. The group has to be living together--living the rule--for some time before the submission of the rule and customary for diocesan approval. Fr. Gambari's book says that there is no blueprint for the establishment of a community, other than getting the following things together: rule, constitutions, aspirants, remunerative work. If the emerging charism is having a problem securing a facility, they can ask the ordinary's assistance. Such is part of the great frustration in making a new foundation. Every step has to be discerned. We can make out as many plans as we want, but, as I said, every step has to be discerned. I had been planning a cenobitic community for 20 years, but the Holy Ghost made a sudden right turn, and now we're assembling an eremetical charism-in-diaspora. I also cannot post my personal address due to familial safety concerns. I am in the Diocese of Charlotte, NC, though. Blessings, Gemma[/quote] Since you have already been very public about your orders, gathered aspirants, and made plans I would think now the opportune time to talk to the diocese offcials so you can have their full support. That way perhaps they can give you full backing and maybe even help you get started! [/quote] I second the motion. Go gemma and tell your bishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote name='tnavarro61' post='1570396' date='Jun 13 2008, 07:35 AM']Since you have already been very public about your orders, gathered aspirants, and made plans I would think now the opportune time to talk to the diocese offcials so you can have their full support. That way perhaps they can give you full backing and maybe even help you get started! I second the motion. Go gemma and tell your bishop.[/quote] Our canon lawyer, also a founder (to whom the bishop sends discerners), says we are not that far along--believe it or not. When I get the eremetical rule done, I will distribute it to the aspirants, and in six months, we will see where everyone is. Since we've had a change in focus, it will take some time for them to make the adjustments. As for the CCMMs, we still have to move slowly. Each step for each project has to be discerned. Each step. She advises that with each new idea, that I discern it for at least three days. This is not a speedy process. Just everyone please give us the charity of prayer! Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote name='Gemma' post='1570399' date='Jun 13 2008, 08:17 PM']Our canon lawyer, also a founder (to whom the bishop sends discerners), says we are not that far along--believe it or not. When I get the eremetical rule done, I will distribute it to the aspirants, and in six months, we will see where everyone is. Since we've had a change in focus, it will take some time for them to make the adjustments. As for the CCMMs, we still have to move slowly. Each step for each project has to be discerned. Each step. She advises that with each new idea, that I discern it for at least three days. This is not a speedy process. Just everyone please give us the charity of prayer! Blessings, Gemma[/quote] If you are very sure that these are going to be established, ask your bishop or any officials to give you help. they must be with you to help you discern for a certain step. Their help is very important. So you must meet him now, or tomorrow, or today so that everything will be okay with them. If you are going to finish everything then present it to your bishop, he may need a longer time to make decisions, or he may alter everything. So meet him as soon as possible. I've seen in your site your refernce to Canon 603, about the diaspora .. (can't recall it) . If you are going to read Canon 603 §2 it says [i]A hermit is recognized by law as one dedicated to God in consecrated life [b]if he or she publicly professes in the hands of the diocesan bishop[/b] the three evangelical counsels, confirmed by vow or other sacred bond, and observes a proper program of living under his direction.[/i], right? Canon 605 [i]The approval of new forms of consecrated life is reserved only to the Apostolic See. Diocesan bishops, however, are to strive to discern new gifts of consecrated life granted to the Church by the Holy Spirit and are to assist promoters so that these can express their proposals as well as possible and protect them by appropriate statutes; the general norms contained in this section are especially to be utilized.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolyHearts Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I just wanted to mantion that w/regard to founders of multiple congregations &/or institutes, as with Bl. James Alberione, who founded 9-10, all the groups follow +/- the same spirit & spirituality. Since one person can belong to only one spirit at a time, I fail to understand how ONE institute will incorporate ALL the charisms that exist or have existed in the Church into that one institute (using & studying ALL rules &/or constitutions) & then go out & found others....Each person in each entity spends a lifetime trying to deepen his/or her single charism. It takes that long to imbibe a spirit, spirituality, charism, whatever....So, that is where all the ???? keep popping up for me...Do not mean to be rude; just profoundly confused with this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote name='HolyHearts' post='1570507' date='Jun 13 2008, 12:27 PM']I just wanted to mantion that w/regard to founders of multiple congregations &/or institutes, as with Bl. James Alberione, who founded 9-10, all the groups follow +/- the same spirit & spirituality. Since one person can belong to only one spirit at a time, I fail to understand how ONE institute will incorporate ALL the charisms that exist or have existed in the Church into that one institute (using & studying ALL rules &/or constitutions) & then go out & found others....Each person in each entity spends a lifetime trying to deepen his/or her single charism. It takes that long to imbibe a spirit, spirituality, charism, whatever....So, that is where all the ???? keep popping up for me...Do not mean to be rude; just profoundly confused with this.....[/quote] It's like I've said before, the Cloisterites have, as its basis, the spirituality of Blessed Emilie D'Oultremont, the foundress of the Society of Mary Reparatrix. The cenobitic Constitutions are modified from that of the Passionist nuns, and the "explanation" chapters are taken from the rules of Albert, Augustine, Benedict, Clare, and Colette, with even more advice from Sts Francis de Sales and Jane de Chantal. The eremetical rule, which I'm pulling together right now, has been culled from Blessed Emilie, Sts. Albert, Romuald, Bruno, Columba, and probably Francis (not sure yet). Not incorporating CHARISMS, HolyHearts, but blending spiritualities. There is a huge difference. Many charisms can share the same spirituality. How many follow the rule of St Augustine, but have very different charisms? We plan to have a library/repository for rules and constitutions which would span from the days of the Apostles to the present. Perhaps that is what you have confused. All charisms and spiritualities come from God. I see no problem with using more than one source to help one live a particular path. HTH. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolyHearts Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Thanks for the clarification, Gemma; sorry I mixed up charisms w/spiritualities & rules. True that they will follow one based on a number of fonts; but in founding or re-founding (from among their members) how will they found something according to a Rule & Spirituality they have not been formed in? That is probably at the heart of my confusion....Was it the original mission of the Society of Mary Reparatrix to live, work, pray, & sacrifice for the intention of building up other communities & then establishing them? If it is a refounding of them, then they were doing this before & dropped it after Vatican 2? It is not only the Cloisterites, but especially the proposed communities (& their charisms) that I question. If the Cloisterites are living their own life according to their Rule & Constitutions, how do they suddenly decide to leave all that behind to found & form women in an Institute in which they themselves are not formed? It is VERY difficult & rare to cast off one Spirit & Spirituality & completely assume & imbibe another....I cannot (in my limited vision) envision someone entering one place w/her whole heart & soul, etc., in order to later leave that to go elsewhere....I think I am missing a connection &/or some piece of information that will clear up this un- certainty of mine..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Excuse me Gemma, but there isa thing that I'm not able ti understand: how could you decide and program and organize all these matters about these communities while you are not living their same life? I mean how could someone decide for the needs and solve of problems for other people if he doesn't experience the seme difficulties or problems? It's very strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudem Gloriae Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 That was one of my concerns in my earlier post that wasn't answered or addressed. Who is doing the formation and teaching of these people who enter? You have never been a religious and have had not formation and as "ale" stated you won't be living the life. If these people were ever to live together in a convent, if they needed you they'd have to call your house and maybe your kids or husband answers the phone? Or what? Postulants and novices need intense and good formation to live the life and persevere and the even professed ones need on going training, help, direction, etc. There is no one to give it to. And as another poster stated, many saints and blesseds have founded many monasteries or convents but they were of the same spirituality. You didn't see St. Teresa of Avila doing reformed contempative, cloistered Carmels and THEN do Carmel like the Carmel of the Most Sacred Heart in LA nursing/teaching sisters or the other branches of Carmel out there. Nor did St. Clare of Assisi branch out into nursing sisters or teaching or whatever. And these saints stayed within their spirituality - they didn't have a mish mash of 6 different rules or spiritualities. When saints like St. Teresa of Avila reformed Carmel and open numerous foundations, she continually traveled from one to the other and back to the the original Carmels and stayed with them as prioress and as one of them, a professed religious, a Carmelite. I can see starting a lay order perhaps but all this and some other strange things I've seen stated in your websites and posts are most disturbing and strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote name='HolyHearts' post='1570637' date='Jun 13 2008, 03:01 PM']Thanks for the clarification, Gemma; sorry I mixed up charisms w/spiritualities & rules. True that they will follow one based on a number of fonts; but in founding or re-founding (from among their members) how will they found something according to a Rule & Spirituality they have not been formed in? That is probably at the heart of my confusion....Was it the original mission of the Society of Mary Reparatrix to live, work, pray, & sacrifice for the intention of building up other communities & then establishing them? If it is a refounding of them, then they were doing this before & dropped it after Vatican 2? It is not only the Cloisterites, but especially the proposed communities (& their charisms) that I question. If the Cloisterites are living their own life according to their Rule & Constitutions, how do they suddenly decide to leave all that behind to found & form women in an Institute in which they themselves are not formed? It is VERY difficult & rare to cast off one Spirit & Spirituality & completely assume & imbibe another....I cannot (in my limited vision) envision someone entering one place w/her whole heart & soul, etc., in order to later leave that to go elsewhere....I think I am missing a connection &/or some piece of information that will clear up this un- certainty of mine.....[/quote] According to Rome, our charism can follow Blessed Emilie, but cannot reproduce exactly the SMRs. Therefore, we are following the reparation part, but to make the charism unique, we are also promoting the cloisters and their vocations, emerging charisms, and allowing the Holy Ghost to work through us to renew extinct or establish new charisms that will help meet today's world's needs. The Sancta Regula states that the Cloisterites who are discerning the call to either renew extinct or found new charisms will have from after Vespers on Friday afternoon, to noon Sunday to meet, pray, and discern the paths they are to take. I'm not sure how much clearer that can be. It's in plain black and white. Once the group gets to a certain point--indicated by the Holy Ghost--they will petition the superior, and start following the path which that kind of group would follow. The help will be there when the time comes. We haven't worked out everything as far as novitiate training is concerned. The Sister Canon Lawyer asked me if I wanted a clear cut path (which everyone else here is looking for, too, from the looks of these questions). She said the Holy Ghost doesn't do that. That's why every step has to be discerned, and appropriate people, etc., are revealed in due time. That includes whomever will do the training. HTH. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote name='Ale' post='1570702' date='Jun 13 2008, 04:23 PM']Excuse me Gemma, but there isa thing that I'm not able ti understand: how could you decide and program and organize all these matters about these communities while you are not living their same life? I mean how could someone decide for the needs and solve of problems for other people if he doesn't experience the seme difficulties or problems? It's very strange.[/quote] There have been many lay founders. The founder is the lawgiver. God works through whomever will allow Him to do so. We are supposed to be the hands and feet of Christ. Since the Cloisterites are starting out as hermits, I have a list of hermits with whom I have communicated, and I'm sure they'd help any way they could. When the cenobitic community is founded--only God knows when that will be or if my husband would still be alive and kids at home. Both boys will be in high school next year. They could be on the other side of the world at college or work for all I know. It's all a very large walk of faith. As for problems--what kind of problems? I should think I would have prepared them for physical problems, as well as finding good priests to help take care of the community. I fully expect that if a nun has to be taken to the hospital in the middle of the night, that I'd be called. My first vocation cannot suffer during this process. However, there will be times when the two vocations have to meet, and I fully expect charitable support from my family. The aspirants are extremely respectful of my family time. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote name='Laudem Gloriae' post='1570723' date='Jun 13 2008, 04:53 PM']That was one of my concerns in my earlier post that wasn't answered or addressed. Who is doing the formation and teaching of these people who enter? You have never been a religious and have had not formation and as "ale" stated you won't be living the life. If these people were ever to live together in a convent, if they needed you they'd have to call your house and maybe your kids or husband answers the phone? Or what? Postulants and novices need intense and good formation to live the life and persevere and the even professed ones need on going training, help, direction, etc. There is no one to give it to. And as another poster stated, many saints and blesseds have founded many monasteries or convents but they were of the same spirituality. You didn't see St. Teresa of Avila doing reformed contempative, cloistered Carmels and THEN do Carmel like the Carmel of the Most Sacred Heart in LA nursing/teaching sisters or the other branches of Carmel out there. Nor did St. Clare of Assisi branch out into nursing sisters or teaching or whatever. And these saints stayed within their spirituality - they didn't have a mish mash of 6 different rules or spiritualities. When saints like St. Teresa of Avila reformed Carmel and open numerous foundations, she continually traveled from one to the other and back to the the original Carmels and stayed with them as prioress and as one of them, a professed religious, a Carmelite. I can see starting a lay order perhaps but all this and some other strange things I've seen stated in your websites and posts are most disturbing and strange.[/quote] "Strange and disturbing" -- I've been called weird my entire life because of my autism. I won't know what "neurotypicals" consider "normal" in situations like this. I have a communications problem, and I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I could. I've been through numerous tests, and all have proven me completely sane, with the exception of the Aspergers Autism and very severe ADD. So, what's so strange and disturbing? The rule of the Passionists was drawn from many spiritualities. A Passionist nun told me that when I was first putting the Sancta Regula together back in the late 1980s. In fact, the Sister Canon Lawyer told me that all rules draw from others, so they're all a "mish mash" of other spiritualities. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 I think Laudem Gloriae is referring to other new charisms that we know. The Sisters of Life were trained by a Dominican, the family of St. John the same, the DSMME's were founded by four professed sisters, the CFRs by professed friars, the new traditional Norbertine nuns travelled to several (if not all) existing Norbertine cloisters and did a canonical novitiate in an existing community. As it appears, the status quo seems to be that formation by professed religious is the way to go, and considering the very intense, tender process that formation is, that sounds like a good thing to me. If you're so far in the starting-up process that you're planning to have your aspirants begin the life this calendar year (as you have stated), you should probably be very, very quick with taking care of their formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 (edited) So they are all asking what I want to ask. 1. Who will take care of your aspirants? How will you be formed? 2. You didn't ask your bishop, probably, from the beginnings of this proposed order. Who is taking care of this sensitive case? You know the role of a bishop, right? And probably any spiritual director will recommend you to consult your bishop first. 3. How can you plan so many religious order? Blessed Giacomo Alberione didn't founded nor probably planned to found many orders at the same time. He founded the Society of Saint Paul first, then realizing that he needs to found another order, he founded the Daughters of Saint Paul. 4. How could you renew an order without being in the order? 5. How could you make plans for a religious order, as if it is already established? You say, the Congregation of the Miraculous Medal will renew, etc. etc. Gemma, my tone here is not annoying. I am sincere, full of curiosity and I don't want to offend you. I am using imperfect Filipino English. I think they may appear offensive to others. And Gemma, you have high school kids! How can you start founding with kids? Edited June 14, 2008 by tnavarro61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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