Vatican Officials Denounce Medjugorje

[the_rev]

IN TOPSY-TURVY WORLD OF APPARITIONS, TWO EXORCISTS ALLEGEDLY FACE OFF

As we shove off for a pilgrimage to Medjugorje, we ask for prayers and acknowledge, as always, that, in the end, we will always adhere to the rulings of the Church.

Thus far, there has been no ruling. The most recent news has been the announcement that a final discernment is not in "regional competence" unless Rome specifically directs such, which in effect has taken the matter away from a national team of local bishops who appeared negative. The same was done twenty years ago, that time with the local bishop in Mostar.

In the topsy-turvy world of mysticism is constant controversy. Most recently, two exorcists have faced off: one -- at least according to a London tabloid -- saying Medjugorje is the "work of the devil," while another, Rome exorcist Father Gabriele Amorth, who has visited there, calling it a great weapon against the devil.

The London report was in the Daily Mail, which started with the words, "The Vatican has denounced a group who claim to have seen the Virgin Mary more than 40,000 times in the past 27 years."

It quoted Andrea Gemma, a bishop and once a "Vatican exorcist," as telling a magazine in Italy that "This whole sham is the work of the devil. It is a scandal." He reportedly said the Vatican "would soon crack down on the group." Many criticize the commercialization of Medjugorje, where shops are now built up in the same way as Fatima and Lourdes.

That report (you can view the tabloid here, viewer discretion advised) flies in the face of statements by famed Rome exorcist Father Amorth, who during his stay at Medjugorje in July 2002 gave an interview to a priest in which he said that "Medjugorje is a fortress against Satan. Satan hates Medjugorje because it is a place of conversion, of prayer, of transformation of life.

"I always understood Medjugorje as a continuation of Fatima. According to Our Lady’s words in Fatima, if we had prayed and fasted, there would not have been World War II. We have not listened to her and therefore there was a war. Also here in Medjugorje, Our Lady often calls to prayer for peace."

He added that "Medjugorje is really a place where one learns to pray, but also to sacrifice oneself, where people are converted and change their lives. The influence of Medjugorje is worldwide. It is enough to think about how many prayer groups came about thanks to the inspiration of Medjugorje. I also lead a prayer group, which was founded in 1984. This group is already 18 years old. We live one afternoon as it is lived in Medjugorje. There are always 700 or 750 people. We always meditate on Our Lady’s message of the 25th of the month and I always read this message in relation to a sentence from the Gospel, because Our Lady does not say anything new. She invites us to do what Jesus thought us to do. Groups like mine exist all over the world."

So we see an apparent divergence of opinion -- even among prominent exorcists, if the quotes from Bishop Gemma (thus far unconfirmed) are accurate.

The problem is that they are in a sensationalist English newspaper that focuses on celebrities with salacious photographs in a way mindful of supermarket tabloids in America.

Does he have inside knowledge? Will the Vatican soon rule against Medjugorje?

No one knows. John Paul II favored Medjugorje. No one knows exactly where Pope Benedict stands.

The only certainty is that controversy -- and confusion -- will continue until Rome, which now has full control, actually rules on the matter, at which time we will not only report it in full but strictly adhere to it.

[url="http://www.spiritdaily.com/medjexorcists.htm"]http://www.spiritdaily.com/medjexorcists.htm[/url]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='the_rev' post='1555918' date='Jun 3 2008, 08:46 AM']It quoted Andrea Gemma, a bishop and once a "Vatican exorcist," as telling a magazine in Italy that "This whole sham is the work of the devil. It is a scandal."[/quote]

Here is the interview from the Italian magazine Petrus. The interview was by Gianluca Barile. For a very bad translation go [url="http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?tt=url&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.novena.it%2Fnews_chiesa_cattolica%2F2008%2F242.htm&lp=it_en&.intl=us&fr=moz2"]here. [/url]

If someone here is good with translating Italian, please do so.


[quote]Medjugorje, l’atto d’accusa del Vescovo-esorcista. Monsignor Gemma: “Le apparizioni della Madonna? Tutto falso: i veggenti mentono sotto ispirazione di Satana per arricchirsi economicamente”

di Gianluca Barile

CITTA’ DEL VATICANO - Un misto tra interessi economici e diabolici, con i presunti veggenti (nella foto) e i loro collaboratori direttamente coinvolti nei guadagni relativi all’elevatissimo flusso di pellegrinaggi e soggiorni in paese, e il Maligno ben contento di seminare zizzania tra i fedeli più convinti delle veridicità delle apparizioni di Medjugorje e la Chiesa, da sempre scettica verso quello che ha definito a più riprese, per bocca dei due Vescovi di Mostar succedutisi nel tempo, ‘un grande inganno’. Monsignor Andrea Gemma, già Vescovo di Isernia-Venafro, tra i più grandi esorcisti viventi, non usa mezzi termini: altro che la Vergine, a Medjugorje sono apparsi, sinora, solo fiumi di denaro. Un’accusa grave, che dà la cifra non solo del coraggio ma anche della levatura morale e spirituale del prelato che ha accettato di rispondere alle domande di ‘Petrus’ su una vicenda così spinosa.

Dunque, Eccellenza, come definire Medjugorje?

“E’ un fenomeno assolutamente diabolico, intorno al quale girano numerosi interessi sotterranei. La Santa Chiesa, l’unica a potersi pronunciare per bocca del Vescovo di Mostar, ha già detto pubblicamente, e ufficialmente, che la Madonna non è mai apparsa a Medjugorje e che tutta questa messinscena è opera del Demonio”.

Lei parla di ‘interessi sotterranei’… Quali?

“Mi riferisco allo ‘sterco del Diavolo’, al denaro, e a cosa, sennò? A Medjugorje tutto avviene in funzione dei soldi: pellegrinaggi, pernottamenti, vendita di gadgets. Cosicché, abusando della buona fede di quei poveretti che si recano lì pensando di andare incontro alla Madonna, i falsi veggenti si sono sistemati finanziariamente, si sono accasati e conducono una vita a dir poco agiata. Pensi, uno di loro organizza direttamente dall’America, con un guadagno economicamente diretto, decine di pellegrinaggio ogni anno. Ecco, costoro non mi sembrano proprio delle persone disinteressate. Anzi, unitamente a chi presta il fianco a questo clamoroso raggiro, hanno palesemente tutto l’interesse materiale di far credere di vedere e parlare con la Vergine Maria”.

Monsignor Gemma, il Suo è un giudizio senza appello?

“Potrebbe essere diversamente? Queste persone che asseriscono di essere in contatto con la Madonna, ma che in realtà sono ispirate solo ed esclusivamente da Satana, stanno creando scompiglio e confusione tra i fedeli per interessi e vantaggi assolutamente deprecabili. Pensi, poi, alla disobbedienza che hanno alimentato in seno alla Chiesa: la loro guida spirituale, un frate francescano cacciato dall’Ordine e sospeso a divinis, continua ad amministrare invalidamente i Sacramenti. E numerosi sacerdoti di tutto il mondo, malgrado il divieto esplicito della Santa Sede, non desistono dall’organizzare e dal prendere parte a pellegrinaggi con destinazione Medjugorje. E’ una vergogna! Ecco perché parlo di una miscela tra interessi personali e diabolici: i falsi veggenti e i loro assistenti intascano denaro, e il Diavolo crea discordia tra i fedeli e la Chiesa; i fedeli più accaniti, infatti, non ascoltano la Chiesa, che - lo ripeto - ha sin dall’inizio ha messo in guardia dalla mendacia delle apparizioni di Medjugorje”.

E se i presunti veggenti vedessero davvero la Madonna?

“In realtà vedrebbero Satana sotto mentite spoglie. Perché Satana ha tutto l’interesse a spaccare la Chiesa contrapponendo le due correnti dei ‘pro’ e dei ‘contro’ Medjugorje. E poi, non sarebbe una novità: lo stesso San Paolo asserisce che il Demonio può anche apparire come Angelo della Luce, e che cioè può camuffarsi. Lo faceva, ad esempio, con Santa Gemma Galgani. Ma al di là dei suoi travestimenti, il Maligno è già intervenuto e vi posso assicurare che è lui ad ispirare i falsi veggenti sin dall’inizio con la lusinga del denaro facile”.

Questi veggenti non Le piacciono proprio…

“Per carità! Basta vedere come si comportano: sono disobbedienti verso la Chiesa, avrebbero dovuto ritirarsi a vita privata e invece continuano a propagandare le loro menzogne per scopi di lucro, facendo così il gioco del Diavolo! Il mio pensiero va immediatamente a Santa Bernadette, la veggente di Lourdes: questa dolce creatura volle spogliarsi della sua vita e scelse l’abito da Suora per servire il Signore. Invece, gli impostori di Medjugorje continuano a vivere comodamente nel mondo senza manifestare alcun tipo di amore né per Dio, né per la Chiesa”.

I sostenitori di Medjugorje sottolineano che la Santa Sede non si è mai espressa in materia.

“Questa è un’altra menzogna! Come accennavo in precedenza, il Vaticano ha vietato i pellegrinaggi da parte di sacerdoti in quel luogo ed ha già parlato per bocca dei due Vescovi succedutisi in questi anni a Mostar, i Monsignori Zanic e Peric, con cui ho parlato personalmente e che mi hanno sempre manifestato i loro dubbi. Veda, neanche per Fatima e Lourdes è accaduto che la Santa Sede si esprimesse direttamente sulle apparizioni mariane. Perché, dunque, avrebbe dovuto fare un’eccezione proprio in questo caso? La verità è che quando parla il Vescovo di Mostar, parla la Chiesa di Cristo ed è a lui, che si esprime con l’autorità conferitagli dal Vaticano, che bisogna dare ascolto. Quindi, la Santa Sede si è sempre espressa con le parole del Vescovo di Mostar, evidenziando che Medjugorje è un inganno diabolico. Ma le farà una confidenza. Vedrà che tra poco il Vaticano interverrà con qualcosa di esplosivo per smascherare una volta per tutte chi c’è dietro questo raggiro”.

Gli stessi sostenitori fanno notare che a Medjugorje si registra ogni anno un record di conversioni e miracoli…

“E’ una forzatura. E poi, chi conta tutte queste conversioni? Veda, se una persona si converte, è perché ha una certa predisposizione, perché si sa guardare dentro, perché sa ricevere il dono dello Spirito. Il luogo in cui avviene questa conversione è del tutto relativo. Pensiamo a San Paolo: si convertì per strada, e allora che dovremmo fare, scendere tutti in strada e attendere di essere convertiti? Per quanto riguarda i miracoli, le racconterò un aneddoto personale. Devo all’intercessione di Nostra Signora del Rosario di Pompei la guarigione miracolosa di una persona della mia famiglia, eppure non mi risulta che la Madonna sia mai apparsa a Pompei. Ecco, per credere, per essere guariti dentro e fuori, non occorre necessariamente che Maria si faccia vedere”.

Che Lei sappia, il Santo Padre Benedetto XVI quale opinione ha di Medjugorje?

“Mi limiterò a sottolineare che fu lui, in quanto Cardinale Prefetto della Congregazione per la Dottrina della Fede, a emanare delle note ufficiali avverse a Medjugorje, come quella che vietava ai sacerdoti e ai religiosi di recarsi in pellegrinaggio in quella terra. Faccia lei…”.

Invece si dice che Giovanni Paolo II fosse convinto della bontà delle apparizioni.

“Una leggenda tutta da provare, fermo restando che le opinioni personali tali sono e non rappresentano in alcun modo un atto magisteriale”.[/quote]

[Deb]

The Web portal of Radio Vatican reports in a text of July 21, 2007, that the Pope Benedict XVI, in Lorenzago di Cadore where he is staying until July 27, spent one hour in prayer in front of an image of Our Lady of Medjugorje.Radio Vatican is saying that it was a very poignant moment.„The Pope went to the small chapel in the forest and prayed in front of the image of Our Lady of Medjugorje. An interesting story is connected with this image: it was brought in the 80’s and was stolen. After some time, the thief brought it back to the small chapel. The Pope prayed the Rosary and spent there about one hour”, says the journalist of Radio Vatican.

[DiscerningSoul]

I am not for or against.
What is the harm of the messages? I for one am uplifted and encouraged when I read the messages, it is a reminder that we need to have our souls ready for when the Lord comes.
Do any of you have a disaster kit for your home? How about jumper cables for the car? You goto the doctor for yearly physicals? Why can't we prepare our souls for the Lord?
Of course I am blonde and just may be so confused also. LOL

[Deb]

No, you are not confused. It all makes sense. I am blond too. Well, mostly. At least kind of now. Well, it changes so isn't important.

[melikalani]

[quote name='Deb' post='1554489' date='Jun 2 2008, 12:50 PM']I do think that the truth will be revealed before the Vatican has any say in it.[/quote]
Who will reveal the truth, if not the Vatican? The Vatican has [i]every [/i]say in the matter.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='the_rev' post='1555918' date='Jun 3 2008, 09:46 AM']IN TOPSY-TURVY WORLD OF APPARITIONS, TWO EXORCISTS ALLEGEDLY FACE OFF

[url="http://www.spiritdaily.com/medjexorcists.htm"]http://www.spiritdaily.com/medjexorcists.htm[/url][/quote]

Oh, I had just read that article, [url="http://www.pewsitter.com/view_news_id_8954.php"]reprinted at Pew Sitter[/url], and i was going to post on this thread--but you already did. It's a great article, and points out everything wrong with that British (I can often hardly call it a) "news paper."

[Galloglasses]

I'm not touching this thread with a hundred foot pole before I finish my shift at the bar.

These Medjugorje threads are like powderkegs,

Its amazing how Medjugorje splits members of the Church viciously against eachother on the matter.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Galloglasses

[lilac_angel]

I see a difference in opinions on Medjugorje and experiences, but I don't see much (if any) any viciousness in this thread. Since it's a non-approved apparition, there is bound to be controversy and a difference in beliefs on it. If there's any legitimacy to it, I have no doubts that the evil forces will want to try to edge themselves in as well.

One benefit I can see, if it is in any way legitimate, is reminding people that there is a supernatural world, alive and well. It's not just some thing of the remote past, or in old religious books that much of society wouldn't place any belief in or even know about. I think the fact that things like this are still seeming to happen could appeal to many, wake them up a bit to the spiritual world, and cultivate an interest in it, especially the young.

Maybe there were a couple of shady things related to it, but the majority of the messages stress prayer, fasting, attending Mass (daily if possible, if I recall) and conversion...all very biblical in nature.

But my opinion is that we should view the messages with caution or not at all, since it's not official...there are plenty other confirmed valid ones to choose from, anyway.

Edited June 4, 2008 by lilac_angel

[Galloglasses]

You obviously haven't seen the other Medjugorje threads then =/

This stuff can really kick off. I made the mistake of challenging it directly and started a three page fight between several Phatmassers.

I don't think the same happened at other sites though, maybe Fatima, but there was little theological controversy there as there were Politico-Religious implications.

However I WILL concede that Medjugorje is reminding people of the spiritual realm. One thing I've always noticed Athiests do is demand miracles, then turn blind eyes to the places which churn out miracles every other week, (Lourdes for Example), citing them as farces equivilent of Pentacostal Faith Healings, (which ironically do have the occasional miracle in them)

Personally I'm a Medjugorje Sceptic and i'm staying that way. I hope to God i'm wrong about Medjugorje, because I dread the consequences if i'm right.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Deb]

[quote name='melikalani' post='1557558' date='Jun 4 2008, 01:45 PM']Who will reveal the truth, if not the Vatican? The Vatican has [i]every [/i]say in the matter.[/quote]


God will reveal the truth. Once the secrets begin to unfold, the Vatican won't be at play at all.

[lilac_angel]

I've seen arguments in passing... it's pretty simple, though, how we as Catholics should deal with such a matter...ideally, a charitable presentation of our thoughts on a matter that is unresolved and open to discussion. Sometimes there are human failings, but it's not necessarily proof that Medjugorje is straight from el diablo.

Yes, it's a good thing that it raises spiritual realm awareness. An awareness that there are real evil forces gives evidence that there is also God and supports the claims of the Gospel, that Jesus died for our sins and drove out demons. God even allows occasional demonic possessions for this purpose. The devil's greatest task is to try to make the world think that he does not exist, but God knows that.

What consequences do you see as a result of Medjugorje, if you're right? Just curious.

Edited June 4, 2008 by lilac_angel

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Deb' post='1557878' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:10 PM']God will reveal the truth. Once the secrets begin to unfold, the Vatican won't be at play at all.[/quote]
Are you serious? If the Vactican condemns it, will it matter if the secrets are unfolded or not?

[Deb]

I would like to hear what consequences you think would happen to if everyone is wrong? I wonder if my gift of faith will abandon me as powerfully as it came? Will I be condemned to hell for letting that place show me the path to God? Would God have called me and lifted me up there if he wasn't there and if not him, who was that who wanted me to turn my life completely over to my Lord Jesus?

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1557880' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:18 PM']I've seen arguments in passing... it's pretty simple, though, how we as Catholics should deal with such a matter...ideally, a charitable presentation of our thoughts on a matter that is unresolved and open to discussion. Sometimes there are human failings, but it's not necessarily proof that Medjugorje is straight from el diablo.

Yes, it's a good thing that it raises spiritual realm awareness. An awareness that there are real evil forces gives evidence that there is also God and supports the claims of the Gospel, that Jesus died for our sins and drove out demons. God even allows occasional demonic possessions for this purpose. The devil's greatest task is to try to make the world think that he does not exist, but God knows that.

What consequences do you see as a result of Medjugorje, if you're right? Just curious.[/quote]


The whole reason why there are Medjugorje Sceptics is the possibility that Medjugorje is a bigger, more complex and potentially more devastating sequel to the Joan of the Cross incident, where the Devil increased a young girl's pride at an early age and made her promise to serve him in return for feeling ectasy throughout her life.

She performed numerous miracles and many, clergy and lay alike, considered her a living saint, on her deathbed she confessed she was posessed and an exorcism was needed, it devastated the faith of the locals around her when news got out.

See why I fear being right about Medjugorje?

Edited June 4, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Deb]

Wow. That would be quite a coup if every single convert from there turned out to be just like her. I will let you know if any Satan like person approaches me and wants me to trade my soul for lifelong ecstacy. I like ecstasy as much as the next guy, but, I really don't think I would trade my soul for it.

I know Satan exists. I even heard him the first time I was in Medjugorje. Mary has even said he is there and he is ticked off. A rosary or two a day does wonders at fending him off.


No, I don't see why you would fear Medjugorje. I don't see why anyone should fear anything at any time. God says, be not afraid. He is carrying us in his arms.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1557890' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:40 PM']The whole reason why there are Medjugorje Sceptics is the possibility that Medjugorje is a bigger, more complex and potentially more devastating sequel to the Joan of the Cross incident, where the Devil increased a young girl's pride at an early age and made her promise to serve him in return for feeling ectasy throughout her life.

She performed numerous miracles and many, clergy and lay alike, considered her a living saint, on her deathbed she confessed she was posessed and an exorcism was needed, it devastated the faith of the locals around her when news got out.

See why I fear being right about Medjugorje?[/quote]

Do the visionaries feel ecstasy on a regular basis, still? Do they themselves perform miracles? If not, then I don't think it would be technically a sequel. If they do, and they seem to be very prideful, well then I guess even more caution is warranted.

But, no matter what, I definitely don't think that we should look down on those who have increased in their faith in the Church and God because of Medjugorje.

Edited June 4, 2008 by lilac_angel

[Deb]

I would be more afraid of those you love who have not converted IF the secrets come to pass. Personally, I hope I don't live through it.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1557901' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:47 PM']Do the visionaries feel ecstasy on a regular basis, still? Do they themselves perform miracles? If not, then I don't think it would be technically a sequel. If they do, and they seem to be very prideful, well then I guess even more caution is warranted.[/quote]
I've heard the have a tendency to be openly critical against the lecoal Bishops in the country who veiw Medjugorje Negatively. Which is what I find suspicious, previous Saints who were criticised by Church officials accepted it very humbly and didn't fight back. (I remember seeing one famous example about obedience on EWTN, were a Saint used to Levitate when hearing the very word 'God', he was put before the Inquisition who accused him of heresy and blasphemy.... He....he AGREED with the Inquisitors, submitting himself to there veiws as them being right and him being wrong due to him being a lowly monk/friar. The Inquisitors where stumped at what to do.) When I say sequel, the devil is not a one trick pony, he can do the same thing in a different way. In this case, the possibility of deceit.

[quote]But, no matter what, I definitely don't think that we should condemn the people who have increased in their faith in the Church and God because of Medjugorje.[/quote]
I am not condemning the people, I never said that, I'm trying to dissuade people from going there till we know whats what, (unless it can't be helped), plenty of people have increased there faith there, I do not deny this, plenty of people have experienced wonderful miracles there, I do not deny this. People claim that this is of God! This I contest, the teachings of Mary in Medjugorje are controversial, and are indeed upsetting a great deal of people, if a miracle is accompanied by unsound teaching, isn't the validity, (in this case, how 'of God' it is), of the miracle undermined? Or is the teaching defined by the miracle?

[quote]I would be more afraid of those you love who have not converted IF the secrets come to pass. Personally, I hope I don't live through it.[/quote]
this is why i'm thinking of following the quiet modern Disciple way, Our Lady promised to a nun, who wished to remain annominous, that those who offer the lives to her will gain salvation of their family members even if they seem to be going to Hell. I'll have to find an article about this to save me scanning up the pamphlet I have in my hand. Are you referring tot he secrets of Fatima by any chance?

Edited June 4, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Noel's angel]

Patience, people. There is little point in wasting energy discussing whether we think the apparitions are true or if they're sent by Satan etc. because no one knows. Wait, and let the Church decide, then follow.