What Does The Church Really Say

[Lucy Lionheart]

but why was it ok then and not ok now

i though the church don't change

[Deb]

[quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1582870' date='Jun 25 2008, 11:45 AM']but why was it ok then and not ok now

i though the church don't change[/quote]


The church may never have issued a firm statement on that through the Holy See. Things can be brought up if there is dissension or the are not clear and then the church, with the help of the Holy Spirit, can issue a clarifying statement on it.

I personally have not researched when this change was put out, by whom, or what the circumstances were. You could ask a priest or you could research it yourself.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1582857' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:34 PM']they say it in the baltimore chaechism[/quote]

Here is what I found in the Baltimore Catechism:

[quote]321. How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism?

Those who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called baptism of blood or baptism of desire.[/quote]

It doesn't directly address the question of infants who die without being baptized, but the simple answer is there is no answer. The current Catechism from the Holy See talks more about unbaptized infants, but it doesn't have a concrete answer because this isn't something God revealed through Scripture or Tradition.

What we do know is God is perfect in his mercy and justice. We also know God gives everyone the graces to be in Heaven. Since an infant or young child would not be capable of rejecting this grace, it's safe to say they go to Heaven. But, there is no dogma stating that is definitely true. We just have to leave it up to God and trust Him.

[Nihil Obstat]

Just let yourself trust in God's infinite mercy.
Deus Caritas Est,
God Is Love.
Don't let yourself think that God enjoys rejecting babies just because due to tragic circumstances they were never formally admitted into the Church.
God never rejects His creation, and babies are not baptized "through no fault of their own".

[rkwright]

[quote name='Deb' post='1582798' date='Jun 25 2008, 09:35 AM']It means we believe that God will accept babies into heaven that die before birth or die before baptism. It also means that those who are in classes to become baptized and confirmed or who fight for Christ, even though not baptized, will go to heaven. If of course they aren't super evil sinners.[/quote]


[quote name='Deb' post='1582836' date='Jun 25 2008, 10:15 AM']The Catholic Church does not say that babies who die prior to baptism do not go to heaven.[/quote]

Just to be clear, the Church does not say that those babies do not go to heaven, but the Church does not say they do go to heaven either.

It would be wrong to read too much into the quote from the CCC; it says those who die unbaptized we trust into the mercy of God. That does not mean we know if in a particular case, or generally, if those souls go to heaven or not.

To say unbaptized babies get a free ticket is to deny original sin. Original sin is real; it damns us to hell from the start, and it is the right and just punishment from the fall. To assume that unbaptized babies automatically receive baptisms by desire is a speculation I am not willing to make, and as far as I know the Church does not make either.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1583062' date='Jun 25 2008, 02:06 PM']Just to be clear, the Church does not say that those babies do not go to heaven, but the Church does not say they do go to heaven either.

It would be wrong to read too much into the quote from the CCC; it says those who die unbaptized we trust into the mercy of God. That does not mean we know if in a particular case, or generally, if those souls go to heaven or not.

To say unbaptized babies get a free ticket is to deny original sin. Original sin is real; it damns us to hell from the start, and it is the right and just punishment from the fall. To assume that unbaptized babies automatically receive baptisms by desire is a speculation I am not willing to make, and as far as I know the Church does not make either.[/quote]
Well they obviously speculate somewhat. That's what it looks like in the Catechism.
I guess the truth is that we don't know, but we trust in God's [b] infinite mercy[/b]
Sounds like a good bet to me.

[kafka]

It is an open theological question on whether or not unbaptised prenatals and infants go to Heaven. Theologians in the past have been neglectful in developing this idea, but the senses of the faithful clearly seems to support the idea that yes indeed they do go to Heaven. The theologian Rahner proposed his "Anonymous Christian" idea. A recent theologian Conte proposed his speculative theology on what he terms "Mystical Baptism."

Personally, I am certain that they do. Various passages of Sacred Scripture seem to assert that yes as an act of Mercy (and also Justice for God is One) they do recieve the gift of eternal life. The only problem would be that their Faith and spiritual life would need to mature. Therefore they may go to a fringe of Purgatory in order to be prepared by God's grace to enter Heaven.

[kafka]

And Lucy you seem sincere, so feel free to ask me questions

[Lucy Lionheart]

i hope i seem sincere

cause i am

i just want to know things for sure

and rkwright sounds alot more like who i heard before and what I thought ws true

[kafka]

[quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1583086' date='Jun 25 2008, 03:58 PM']i hope i seem sincere

cause i am[/quote]
good to know.

Edited June 25, 2008 by kafka

[StColette]

[quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1583086' date='Jun 25 2008, 03:58 PM']i hope i seem sincere

cause i am

i just want to know things for sure[/quote]

Lucy, I'm positive that you are being sincere in your questions. Keep asking them and we will do our best to answer them. If there is something that we are unsure about the Church's stance on something, we have a number of priests on the forum who are willing to help out with questions as well as Church scholars who hold degrees in Theology.

[Lucy Lionheart]

ok they said to come back here to ask

can babies before they were born have any feelings at all

and if they are mad can that make them not go to heaven as soon

like pergutaroy

like if they are really really mad

like if someone sinned at them

[StColette]

[quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1583162' date='Jun 25 2008, 05:13 PM']ok they said to come back here to ask

can babies before they were born have any feelings at all

and if they are mad can that make them not go to heaven as soon

like pergutaroy

like if they are really really mad

like if someone sinned at them[/quote]

I guess they could have feelings, I'm not really certain.

Being mad does not send anyone to hell. In adults, being willfully angry ( which is different than just feeling the emotion of anger or being mad ) or hateful is definitely a sin. The Church recognizes something called "age of reason" in which children, usually around the age of 7 know what is right and what is wrong and can understand the meaning of sin. Babies are definitely far away from this age of reason and thus would not be committing any sins.

[Lucy Lionheart]

so they are always happy even if they die

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kafka' post='1583078' date='Jun 25 2008, 02:35 PM']Therefore they may go to a fringe of Purgatory in order to be prepared by God's grace to enter Heaven.[/quote]
That was my thought as well.
Interesting to think about though; I wonder what awareness is like after death. We generally assume it's at least similar to now, but that can't be true, because the self awareness of infants and small children is extremely different and undeveloped.

[StColette]

[quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1583172' date='Jun 25 2008, 05:23 PM']so they are always happy even if they die[/quote]

I'm not sure. I do believe that babies who die are very close to God, either in Heaven or some other place (not Hell) Everytime I think about babies who have died I think to Matthew 19:13-14 "Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." We must have faith in the infinite mercy and love of our Heavenly Father.