Sspx Rejects Pope's Call To Rejoin Rome

[Alycin]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1587539' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:24 PM']There are varying degrees of communion.[/quote]

that is true, I didn't think about it that way...

*ponders the groups of religious that are not in full communion with Rome*

[Alycin]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1587539' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:24 PM']There are varying degrees of communion.[/quote]

that is true, I didn't think about it that way...

*ponders the groups of religious that are not in full communion with Rome*

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587550' date='Jun 30 2008, 08:30 PM']*ponders the groups of religious that are not in full communion with Rome*[/quote]
Anyone who is validly baptized is put into communion (at least to some degree) with the Church.

The main groups would be: (1) the Eastern Orthodox Churches, which are true particular Churches; (2) the ecclesial communities that arose during the Protestant Reformation; and (3) many of the modern non-denominational communities.

[XIX]

Well put, Apo.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1587535' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:22 PM']The Eastern Church Fathers held that the Patriarchs believed in the Holy Trinity, and that it was the rabbis during and after the time of Christ who fell away from the true faith. Thus, in a sense Rabbinic Judaism can be called the first major heresy (cf. the letters of St. Ignatios of Antioch), because those who accepted it broke with the undefiled Triadological faith of the Patriarchs of the Old Covenant.[/quote]

For many of the Early Rabbis who explicity rejected Christianity, I would agree. But of those who were in good conscience staying faithful to an assumed continuity with the Old Covenant, there is a level of invincible ignorance that must be recognized with eyes of mercy. The situation of the average Jew at that time was very different than that of Arias or Luther. Only the Jews can honestly claim that they didn't get the message that God had "radically" changed the state of the Faith -- moving the Seat of Moses from The Chief Priest to the Pope, fulfilling in one single person all the hopes and prayers of the prophets in one man who was the One God. That kind of change is much harder to accept than what other heretical movements have been faced with. If anyone can be considered our "lost brethren", it must be the Jews first!

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1587535' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:22 PM']As I see it, it is absolutely vital that any form of theological indifferentism be avoided, because salvation comes only from and through faith in Christ; and so as a Christian I believe it is my duty to pray for the conversion of the Jews living today in order that they may come into a living relationship with the Tri-hypostatic God revealed in sacred scripture, i.e., in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.[/quote]

I believe there must be a careful balance between recongizing a relationship and possibly blurring our real differences of faith. And I understand the dangers of giving some people TOO much room to take ecunenism in a direction it simply cannot go without betraying one's identity as a Catholic.

But, there is much to be learned from the hoenst faith of our separated brethren (from those who are in fact honest). When researching biblical resources that affirmed the teachings of the Catholic faith on the internet, I found the Catholic resources very much in need. On common matters of faith -- such as the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ, the relationship between the Covenants and Salvation History -- I found that Protestants offer much more by way of studying the Greek text, and the Jews offer much more by way of studying the Hebrew text. And their insite into these common elements of the Faith do in fact inspire me to be a better Catholic. But -- that does require that I understand our differences first so as not to betray them when we work together.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1587591' date='Jun 30 2008, 08:46 PM']For many of the Early Rabbis who explicity rejected Christianity, I would agree. But of those who were in good conscience staying faithful to an assumed continuity with the Old Covenant, there is a level of invincible ignorance that must be recognized with eyes of mercy.[/quote]
This moves into speculative waters, because neither you nor I can know if a person is invincibly ignorant of the true faith, we can only judge according to a man's outward actions. Nevertheless, to accept a belief system that is inherently formulated in order to deny Christian truth is damnable.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1587557' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:35 PM']Anyone who is validly baptized is put into communion (at least to some degree) with the Church.

The main groups would be: (1) the Eastern Orthodox Churches, which are true particular Churches; (2) the ecclesial communities that arose during the Protestant Reformation; and (3) many of the modern non-denominational communities.[/quote]

I was thinking of like, women religious communities that are kind of over-the-top with their modernism, particularly.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1587591' date='Jun 30 2008, 08:46 PM']Only the Jews can honestly claim that they didn't get the message that God had "radically" changed the state of the Faith -- moving the Seat of Moses from The Chief Priest to the Pope, fulfilling in one single person all the hopes and prayers of the prophets in one man who was the One God. That kind of change is much harder to accept than what other heretical movements have been faced with. If anyone can be considered our "lost brethren", it must be the Jews first![/quote]
I deny absolutely that the state of the faith was "radically changed," because the faith is immutable. The Old Testament patriarchs and prophets believed in Christ (i.e., in the pre-incarnate Logos), and they worshipped the Holy Trinity.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587596' date='Jun 30 2008, 08:51 PM']I was thinking of like, women religious communities that are kind of over-the-top with their modernism, particularly.[/quote]


Due to their reception of baptism, they would be in communion with the Church, but the level of communion could be imperfect if they have embraced various theological errors.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1587591' date='Jun 30 2008, 08:46 PM']But, there is much to be learned from the hoenst faith of our separated brethren (from those who are in fact honest). When researching biblical resources that affirmed the teachings of the Catholic faith on the internet, I found the Catholic resources very much in need. On common matters of faith -- such as the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ, the relationship between the Covenants and Salvation History -- I found that Protestants offer much more by way of studying the Greek text, and the Jews offer much more by way of studying the Hebrew text. And their insite into these common elements of the Faith do in fact inspire me to be a better Catholic. But -- that does require that I understand our differences first so as not to betray them when we work together.[/quote]
I once believed something akin to this, but as an Eastern Christian I no longer hold that faith is a discursive form of knowledge; instead, faith involves an experiential participation in God's uncreated life and glory through grace.

[XIX]

There is an automatic excommunication for female "priests" so they'd basically have a level of communion similar to that of a Protestant. Maybe a bit greater is they were confirmed as Catholics.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1587595' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:50 PM']This moves into speculative waters, because neither you nor I can know if a person is invincibly ignorant of the true faith, we can only judge according to a man's outward actions. Nevertheless, to accept a belief system that is inherently formulated in order to deny Christian truth is damnable.[/quote]

But that assumes that all accepted that system for the sake of denial. It is more realistic to assume that most Jews were unaware of the Truths of the Christian Faith than to assume that all were aware and therefore culpable. And the Rabbis were the teachers of the average Jew before the end of the Old Covenant. Even Christ Himself recognized a teaching authority in the Rabbi to some degree by participating at His own synogogue (particularly when He revealed Himself and was subsequently rejected by His own people). A Jew who continued to participate in his/her faith at the synogogue would have been acting in good conscience unless he/she had explicitly rejected the convincing words of a Christian believer beforehand. The burden falls more on us to sufficiently teach the faith to them than it does on them accepting something they as of yet do not understand or have not yet heard.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='XIX' post='1587620' date='Jun 30 2008, 09:03 PM']There is an automatic excommunication for female "priests" so they'd basically have a level of communion similar to that of a Protestant. Maybe a bit greater is they were confirmed as Catholics.[/quote]
A person who is excommunicated is not even imperfectly in communion with the Church. Thus, Protestants living today are closer to the Church than someone who tries to simulate the sacrament of orders.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1587627' date='Jun 30 2008, 09:05 PM']But that assumes that all accepted that system for the sake of denial. It is more realistic to assume that most Jews were unaware of the Truths of the Christian Faith than to assume that all were aware and therefore culpable. And the Rabbis were the teachers of the average Jew before the end of the Old Covenant. Even Christ Himself recognized a teaching authority in the Rabbi to some degree by participating at His own synogogue (particularly when He revealed Himself and was subsequently rejected by His own people). A Jew who continued to participate in his/her faith at the synogogue would have been acting in good conscience unless he/she had explicitly rejected the convincing words of a Christian believer beforehand. The burden falls more on us to sufficiently teach the faith to them than it does on them accepting something they as of yet do not understand or have not yet heard.[/quote]
You and I cannot know what is in another person's mind, but if they embrace a theological system that is inherently anti-Christian, then it follows that we must see them as cut off from the true faith. Whether they are damned or not is up to God.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Apotheoun

[abercius24]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1587619' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:02 PM']I once believed something akin to this, but as an Eastern Christian I no longer hold that faith is a discursive form of knowledge; instead, faith involves an experiential participation in God's uncreated life and glory through grace.[/quote]

I agree, but because it is intangible and can at best be personally sensed I used an intellectual example to demonstrate. But nonetheless, what good is recognizing the baptism of non-Catholics if we are not at least willing to recognize their participation in grace to some extent -- and their relationship to us by virtue of our sharing in that grace (which yes, is nothing less than a participation in God's uncreated life and glory).

And we cannot deny that God would lovingly appreciate the geniune worship shown by a faithful Jew of the Rabbinnic era despite his/her ignorance of the faith. Is that love shown between the two not a participation in grace to some extent? Perhaps not sanctifying grace (as we would call it in the West), but certainly a relationshp that we would have in common with him/her.

Edited July 1, 2008 by abercius24