Moslems Vs Nuns & Monks

[Autumn Dusk]

first off, I know the monks of the northeast who make "monkbread" so when have I seen a guy in a habit baking. Recently.

[homeschoolmom]

Please don't exaggerate... it really lessens your argument.

NO ONE said that if a Muslim woman did not wear a tee and jeans (or even "western" clothing) that she should be locked in the house. You are now arguing using emotion and not reason or facts.

Someone can choose to dress however s/he wants (within legal standards-- no being buck nekkid, please), but s/he will have to realize that there is sometimes a downside. For example, during the priest abuse scandal, I am sure there were many men who where looked down on and perhaps uncomfortable wearing their collars. They realize that it is a sacrifice, but they are willing to make it. Many Catholic women wear a veil at Mass because it is their conviction to do so. Many feel looks of scorn.

Likewise, many Muslim women realize that wearing a hijab or a niqab will "cost" them something-- stares, rude comments, maybe even some job opportunities. MOST either work to try to find a compromise or they realize that it is a sacrifice that they are willing to make.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1591920' date='Jul 5 2008, 10:51 AM']first off, I know the monks of the northeast who make "monkbread" so when have I seen a guy in a habit baking. Recently.[/quote]
So what? Are you suggesting that germs are past from bread loaf to bread loaf on the monks' sleeves? As long as his hands are washed and the working environment is clean, there should be no problem... If that is distasteful to you, don't buy their bread.

Unfortunately in a medical emergency, most of us are not offered the luxury of being able to pick and choose our caregivers.

[Autumn Dusk]

I'm saying that if we don't discriminate against monks then we shouldn't discriminate against moslems.

[mortify]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1591914' date='Jul 5 2008, 09:33 AM']What I find interesting is that there can't be a compromise-- couldn't a niqab-wearing nurse (or doctor) wear a surgical mask to cover her face (and have something else, like a sort of turtleneck) covering her neck?[/quote]

Well I think there are several components to that answer. First you have to consider the fact that according to strict Islamic law, you should not be able to see the curves of a woman's body. Therefore tight fitting clothes like a turtle neck would be thrown out, and a face mask would not be able to cover the whole face, this would also be a problem when it comes to rolling up sleeves (since all skin would have to be covered) plus I imagine it's easier to breath through a niqaab than face mask. Lastly, there is always that traditional component of sticking to things that objectively manifest one's faith.

Ultimately it depends how far a Muslim woman goes with her faith. An extreme using the niqaab will face many difficulties, but the average Muslim doesn't go to such extremes. Most have only retained the head scarf while embracing tight fitting clothing. For these I don't imagine a lot of problems.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1591937' date='Jul 5 2008, 11:18 AM']I'm saying that if we don't discriminate against monks then we shouldn't discriminate against moslems.[/quote]
I think the monks you refered to bake in their own monistaries.....

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='mortify' post='1591943' date='Jul 5 2008, 11:34 AM']Well I think there are several components to that answer. First you have to consider the fact that according to strict Islamic law, you should not be able to see the curves of a woman's body. Therefore tight fitting clothes like a turtle neck would be thrown out, and a face mask would not be able to cover the whole face, this would also be a problem when it comes to rolling up sleeves (since all skin would have to be covered) plus I imagine it's easier to breath through a niqaab than face mask. Lastly, there is always that traditional component of sticking to things that objectively manifest one's faith.

Ultimately it depends how far a Muslim woman goes with her faith. An extreme using the niqaab will face many difficulties, but the average Muslim doesn't go to such extremes. Most have only retained the head scarf while embracing tight fitting clothing. For these I don't imagine a lot of problems.[/quote]


Okay... question... Would a woman be allowed to work on a male patient under the same strict Muslim law that would require her to wear a niqab? Because if not, then the whole question is pretty moot.

[Autumn Dusk]

the monks do work in a monistary, but there isn't any reason any other bakery couldn't operate like that (and heavens to betsy if it did, their bread is GOOD).
And I didn't say let them all wear face-scarvs and gloves...im just talking about general clothing...headscarvs and dresses. Items which are not kouth in today's society.

[Seven77]

bottom line: it's not going to kill us to see a woman in a hijab--unless it's Osama in disguise.

[homeschoolmom]

I don't think this is an argument about fashion.

[mortify]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1591958' date='Jul 5 2008, 10:51 AM']Okay... question... Would a woman be allowed to work on a male patient under the same strict Muslim law that would require her to wear a niqab? Because if not, then the whole question is pretty moot.[/quote]

I'm obviously not a Muslim scholar, but from my recollection and understanding, a Muslim woman is not permitted to be with a non-relative male, unless a relative male chaperon is present. I certainly can't imagine a strict understanding would permit such a woman to physically examine a male patient.

[CatherineM]

There have been several research projects in hospitals, and they found the most unsanitary things were doctor's ties. They tend to dangle onto patients, and how often do guys actually wash their ties? If a scarf hangs down, same problem.

As to nun's veil's, our church runs a concession stand at the CFL football stadium here, and I supervise the kitchen. Last week, one of our sisters who wears a habit was one of my volunteers. Normally we are all required to wear Coke logo shirts and ball hats. I told the food service supervisor, that she was going to wear her veil and not the ball hat, and if someone had a problem with it, they could come down and complain to me personally. I'm kind of big and imposing when I want to be, but no one had a problem with it, after all her hair was definitely covered.

[dominicansoul]

Having worn a habit in the kitchen, there are several ways we keep the loose fabric away from our hands and the food....

But I can see Autumn Dusk's point about it all being sanitary....we never changed our habits but once a week, and I'm sure they had loads of microscopic bacteria crawling all over them....and no matter how careful we were, I'm sure some of those germs landed on the food...

...Good thing we always prayed Grace before our meals! We hardly ever became sick!!!

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1591958' date='Jul 5 2008, 10:51 AM']Okay... question... Would a woman be allowed to work on a male patient under the same strict Muslim law that would require her to wear a niqab? Because if not, then the whole question is pretty moot.[/quote]


As I mentioned earlier, many of these Muslims are coming from countries and cultures where women didn't have jobs outside the house in the first place, thus they are unprepared for the unique challenges of being of a religion with this many restrictions in a Western culture.

It's not just the clothing issue. There was also the case of the Muslim woman who worked as a supermarket cashier and who pitched a fit because she was threatened with firing when she refused to ring up any sales involving pork or alchohol stating the Islamic law that forbids a Muslim to even TOUCH these items. As has become the norm in the spineless West, her boss kow-towed to her cries of discrimination and she was allowed to keep her job--all sales involving pork products or alchohol were to be handled by another staff member. And of course there was the infamous incident in New York involving Muslim cab drivers who were trying to get their cab association to allow them to refuse passengers with dogs or who were carrying in their possession obvious containers of alchohol. Thankfully, the NY cab association put their foot down and refused. There are numerous more incidents like this all over Europe, Canada and the USA, and in some cases as far as China.

There are only two options therefore: 1) Islam has to be reformed or 2) Muslims themselves have to step down and be willing to make a few compromises (which might put them in direct conflict with their religion).

Just more proof to me that Islam is an oppressive regime that squeezes the life out of anyone who has the misfortune to become involved with it.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='mortify' post='1591987' date='Jul 5 2008, 11:16 AM']I'm obviously not a Muslim scholar, but from my recollection and understanding, a Muslim woman is not permitted to be with a non-relative male, unless a relative male chaperon is present. I certainly can't imagine a strict understanding would permit such a woman to physically examine a male patient.[/quote]


That's imposed more strictly only in certain countries. In Saudi Arabia it's enforced with a punishment of imprisonment or lashes, or both. Two years ago there was that horrible case involving a 19 year old girl who was caught sitting in a car with a male friend her same age. They were both dragged from the car and raped. BOTH were raped. The woman was gang-raped by at least 8 men. Some of the men received prison time but none received no more than 6 months of jail time. The young woman received a sentence of a few months prison time and over 60 lashes because after all she broke the law by being out of her house without a male relative. When she complained to a lawyer the lashes were doubled. When the case gained international attention, the Saudi government finally backed off saying she had been "punished" enough what with the rapes and all. Unbelieveable.

But my Muslim friend from Tunisia is not veiled and she has a boyfriend and she drives a car. So that culture seems to be more moderate.

[CatholicCid]

Considering that the institutions that "bend the rules" for the Nuns and Monks would be religious institutions, I don't really see any comparison here. Yes, a nun working in a religious hospital would be allowed to wear most, if not all, of their habit. Why wouldn't they? It's a religious hospital. Yes, a monk baking in his monastery can bake in whatever he chooses to wear. Why wouldn't he?

Now, if these religious went out to obtain secular jobs, odds are they would have to don work appropriate uniforms.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1591981' date='Jul 5 2008, 11:12 AM']bottom line: it's not going to kill us to see a woman in a hijab--unless it's Osama in disguise.[/quote]


No one here has said there's any problem with the veil. Most democratic nations and most workplaces and schools in those nations don't have a problem with it either.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1592052' date='Jul 5 2008, 12:47 PM']Considering that the institutions that "bend the rules" for the Nuns and Monks would be religious institutions, I don't really see any comparison here.[/quote]

Nope, there was really no comparison at all, not from the very beginning of this thread.

[Autumn Dusk]

my point is that a bakery in a monistary isn't any different than a bakery in walmart. We say its fine for religious to wear their habits but not for moslem women to wear theirs. Its a double standard. It can't be sanitary for monks and not for a moslem working at walmart (so long as everything is tied back correctly.)

Like seven77 said, it won't kill us.

I'm just trying to point out that dirt is dirt. Weither it be on a moslems' garb or a nun's. A few extreme cases get under eveyone's skin here in America (or the general part of the UK) and suddenly its a huge issue.

Why do we even need to talk about violence in the moslem world. This is about how we view others.

You could say Athiests are making just as much trouble as moslems in their radical demads on occasion. During the Cold War it was basically unheard of to be athiest...thats why they added "under god" to the pledge. It was a financial death sentence as late as the 60's to declare oneself Athiest. But we don't go around saying that people can't be athiests now becuase some athiests want the pledge changed or a christmas tree taken down. Those persons are on the fringe.

[mortify]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1592050' date='Jul 5 2008, 12:46 PM']That's imposed more strictly only in certain countries...[/quote]

That was a very unfortunate and sad case, but I was referring to actual Islamic fiq, not to what degree it's applied in other countries, though it is interesting Saudi Arabia is one of the few countries that upholds it.