Catholic Faith Vs Citizenship...

[Hassan]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1599108' date='Jul 13 2008, 09:06 AM']Catholic First Irish second.

For those of you confused, he's referring to the Christero War. In which a stringently athiest and minority government ruled Mexico and began persecuting the Priesthood and Church in Mexico. The Church in Rome didn't want to cause too much dissent for fear of causing the fervently pious Mexican Peasentry from waging war on the government. Somewhere along the line an Athiest president began a heavy persecution of the clergy and the Mexican Peasentry rose up and a civil war broke out.[/quote]


It was illegal for the clergy to wear their vestments in public until relatively recently wasn’t it?

[Galloglasses]

In Mexico? I have no idea. (Btw, do you mean the vestments they were at Mass or their standard Black Shirt and Pants/Cossack + Roman Collar?) As far as I'm aware the Government in Mexico is still socialist, (I don't focus much on the History of the Americas)

[Deb]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1599964' date='Jul 14 2008, 02:30 PM']How about NOT fighting in the war seeing as it was wrong. Most wars are fought for the wrong reasons.[/quote]


Which war was wrong?

[Galloglasses]

I think he means the Iraq War. For the Record, the Magisterium is out on deciding its stance on the war so Catholics have free reign to argue over it.

The Afghanistan War cannot be said to be unjustified however, the Taliban did claim responsability for 9/11

[Hassan]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1600001' date='Jul 14 2008, 02:45 PM']I think he means the Iraq War. For the Record, the Magisterium is out on deciding its stance on the war so Catholics have free reign to argue over it.

The Afghanistan War cannot be said to be unjustified however, the Taliban did claim responsability for 9/11[/quote]

Sure they can. The Afghan war was motivated by a blood lust in the nation after the attacks. And the Taliban did not claim responsibility nor did they refuse to turn over Bin Laden(sort of). I believe they demanded to see our evidence against him, and said they could not turn him over to a Kafur state. They did offer to export him to a third party Shariah court. Given the fact that even the leader of Hezbollah condemned Bin Laden's targeting of civilians I think we should have perhaps considered this(it retrospect it looks attractive, given Mr. Bin Laden’s present status in the developing world and his success in evading our forces thus far). We should have at least had a national discussion about it. While the bombs made cool fireworks on TV, we should have done a better job o remembering that real people liven there, not just abstractions who exist so we can "light up their sky like a fourth of July" and "put a boot up their ass"(to quote our modern Shakespeare Mr. Keith)

I understand why we wanted revenge after seeing the horrors of that day. I did too, and do not exempt myself from criticism. I was in Seventh grade when the buildings were hit and still remember the day vividly.

I think that there could have been a just response to the Taliban attacks; however a war for revenge is not compatible with Christian principals so far as I can tell. Did we exhaust all avenues to arrive at a peaceful resolution before attacks and killing quite a few civilians? I really don't think so.

Not that I have any love loss for the Taliban.

I think that an invasion of Afghanistan could have been reconciled with the Church's teachings on Just War doctrine, but a big factor in the Afghan invasion was a thirst for revenge. I remember the rhetoric.

Both Pope's have condemned the Iraq war so far as I know. I don't see how you can possibly justify that war with Just war Principals. You say the Magisterium is still out, I was under the impression both Pope's had denounced it, but I could be wrong.

[Deb]

The Iraq war is not a just war. We had no more reason to invade them than we did a lot of much worse countries around the globe. It all comes down to oil and a foothold in the Middle East. Our government has managed to screw that up while they were at it.

I thought we were talking about the persecution of Catholics in Mexico, that war.

[CatherineM]

My Godmother was born in Guadalupe, and her family moved to the US in 1923. I guess that was probably why.

[dominicansoul]

Gallo, I think you are thinking of what happened in Mexico during the early part of the 20th century, when the atheists took power in Mexico and began a deadly persecution of the Catholic Church. What is being referred to at the very beginning of this topic is when Santa Anna was battling the pre-dominantly Masonic-American army for Texas. Irish battalions made up of many European ex-patriates were called into service by the American army to do battle against the Mexican army. When Santa Ana heard of these battalions, he sent them a telegram telling them they should fight on Mexico's side, seeing that they were "Catholic brothers" and it was wrong for the Irish to fight alongside those anglo-Protestants. The Irish decided to go with the Mexicans, because, yes, the Anglos were not Catholic, they were very anti-Catholic, and they bashed the Irish all the time. In fact, the battle of the Alamo has always been taught in American schools to make it out like the Mexicans were the bad guys, when in fact they were just defending their country. Texas was Mexico at the time. I hate it when I go to the Alamo in San Antonio (which, by the way was a Catholic chapel before the Anglo army used it as a defensive fort,) and I see the Masonic emblem emblazoned on the outside wall of the Alamo.

In the end, the Mexican army was defeated, every member of the Irish battalion still surviving at the end of the battles were hanged for treason.

They were known as the "San Patricios", and for years were looked upon as traitors of America....but in Mexico and for many Mexican-Americans...they were viewed as heroes.

I believe there is a movie out about this, but it was not played here in our country...(I wonder why?) Oh yeah, it was called "One Man's Hero" and it starred Tom Berenger...

Edited July 15, 2008 by dominicansoul

[Galloglasses]

Ah, thats makes a whole lot more sense now.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Deb' post='1599997' date='Jul 14 2008, 03:42 PM']Which war was wrong?[/quote]


Iraq War
Desert Storm
Vietnam War
American Civil War
American Revolution
Cold War


Just to name a few.

[CatherineM]

Had family members fight in every one of those. Bummer.

[picchick]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1600601' date='Jul 15 2008, 06:09 PM']Iraq War
Desert Storm
Vietnam War
American Civil War
American Revolution
Cold War


Just to name a few.[/quote]


Whoa.....American Revolution????? Civil War?????

Without the American Revolution we would not be the free country we are today. Without the Civil War we would be a nation still separated. Salvery (although this was not the main reason for war) may still be ok today.

In response to Havok, Hassan, and Deb:
God is my all...I get everything from him. My country comes from God. True, God is not in the constitution. I know that "under God" is from the pledge. I never thought differently. Do you guys honestly think I love my country because of the bad things that the PEOPLE of the country did? No. I love my country because I don't have to hide the fact that I am Catholic for fear of being murdered by the government. I am able to go anywhere I choose and admire what God has given me. Remember that the Church has a past too, not as horrible as other pasts but that does not mean I love the sacraments, the hierarchy or anything else just as less. Again, whether my government and the citizens recognize it or not...they owe everything to God and therefore are under God. This is why I love my country because it is under God.

This is the last that I am going to post on this. I obviously am not doing a good enough job expaining what I am feeling. I do not understand why my feelings are under critique when USAirways said something sorta similar....but oh well. If there is anything else I can make clearer you can always PM me.

God Bless,
Meg

Edited July 15, 2008 by picchick

[Winchester]

Catholic Texan American.

[havok579257]

[quote name='picchick' post='1600635' date='Jul 15 2008, 06:43 PM']Whoa.....American Revolution????? Civil War?????

Without the American Revolution we would not be the free country we are today. Without the Civil War we would be a nation still separated. Salvery (although this was not the main reason for war) may still be ok today.

In response to Havok, Hassan, and Deb:
God is my all...I get everything from him. My country comes from God. True, God is not in the constitution. I know that "under God" is from the pledge. I never thought differently. Do you guys honestly think I love my country because of the bad things that the PEOPLE of the country did? No. I love my country because I don't have to hide the fact that I am Catholic for fear of being murdered by the government. I am able to go anywhere I choose and admire what God has given me. Remember that the Church has a past too, not as horrible as other pasts but that does not mean I love the sacraments, the hierarchy or anything else just as less. Again, whether my government and the citizens recognize it or not...they owe everything to God and therefore are under God. This is why I love my country because it is under God.

This is the last that I am going to post on this. I obviously am not doing a good enough job expaining what I am feeling. I do not understand why my feelings are under critique when USAirways said something sorta similar....but oh well. If there is anything else I can make clearer you can always PM me.

God Bless,
Meg[/quote]


The ends do NOT justify the means.

Do you know why the Civil War even happened in the first place? Its was NOT due to slavery. The south wanted to succed from the USA and become their own country. The north did not want the USA to be seperated so they went to war. Yes, by the north winning slavery was ended, but that was never the intention of the civil war. So how can a war with selfish intentions ever be considered right?

The American Revolution is even worse. It was never about freedom at first. It was simply about the fact that American's did not want to pay taxes to the British. That's it. Sure, in the end we won our freedom, but again I ask, do selfish intentions to start a war ever be considered good?

The ends due not justify the means. There was positives to comne out of the war, but the intentions were not good, they were selfish.

I never questioned your feelings for your country or God, I simply made the comment, that most wars are evil and one should not be picking sides and instead we should NOT be having wars unless we are fighting pure evil, like in WWII.

[picchick]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1600746' date='Jul 15 2008, 09:53 PM']The ends do NOT justify the means.

Do you know why the Civil War even happened in the first place? Its was NOT due to slavery. The south wanted to succed from the USA and become their own country. The north did not want the USA to be seperated so they went to war. Yes, by the north winning slavery was ended, but that was never the intention of the civil war.[/quote]

Thus my statement how slavery was not the main reason for the civil war. It was state rights really. The southern end wanted more of a local government and less of a strong central government. They were use to their "county" governments (I think that was the proper term) rather than people in Washington DC deciding things for them.

[quote]The American Revolution is even worse. It was never about freedom at first. It was simply about the fact that American's did not want to pay taxes to the British. That's it. Sure, in the end we won our freedom, but again I ask, do selfish intentions to start a war ever be considered good?[/quote]
Dude, I know this. I had my history classes. But the taxes meant that we had to serve under a British government. British soldiers invaded colony homes. They didn't need permission. They could stay at whatever house they wanted. It wasn't just about taxes. In what I learned it was a combination of all of the above, lack of privacy, no freedom of speech, and the taxes among other things. It was not only the taxes.
[quote name='havok579257' post='1600746' date='Jul 15 2008, 09:53 PM']I never questioned your feelings for your country or God, I simply made the comment, that most wars are evil and one should not be picking sides and instead we should NOT be having wars unless we are fighting pure evil, like in WWII.[/quote]

It looked like it was going in like with Hassan and Deb...I apologize, I read too much into what you were saying.

Meg

[picchick]

You know...in thinking about this more and more I realized that I maybe didn't make it clear enough.

God is first...always. My thought about country is this: my country was made by God. So if I cannot deny God how can I deny the thing He created?

However, if I gun were put to my head and someone said, "Pick....now." I'd choose God of course.

Sorry for all the confusion or scandal I may have caused.

Meg

[Justin86]

I believe in God, Family , and Country. In that order.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1599991' date='Jul 14 2008, 03:31 PM']Did he also wipe out the various Native American Populations with small pox laced blankets and insert the clause that slaves were 3/5ths of a person?[/quote]


the mythical (yet generally accepted) blankets

[Norseman82]

Here's the way I look at it.

We have a first amendment to protect our rights as Catholics. If that amendment is not honored, we have the second amendment. Thank you, Heller.

[Barbarus]

John Courtney Murray, who was highly influential in Vatican II, argued that Catholics make the best Americans. While some of his optimism about the nature of public discourse is a bit misplaced, I think his basic premise is right (and so, apparently, did the Council). Catholics have a faith open to dialogue with anyone, and should be able to bring this to the public square and be able to reasonably and eloquently present this faith. I think we have several examples of this now in influential positions in the U.S.