The Rosary

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1612021' date='Jul 29 2008, 08:12 PM']I'm not calling for legalism, but on the other hand, I don't understand how someone who was really devoted to Mary would not want to pray the Rosary. Some are overwhelmed by the legnth, or feel they are not medidating correctly. All Jesus and Mary want is a willingness to try and a contrite heart. We don't need to pray perfectly. The Holy Spirt perfects our imperfect prayers.[/quote]

On the contrary, I think it is quite possible to have a devotion to the Blessed Mother without feeling the [b]call[/b] to pray the rosary consistently. Actually, come to think of it, the only times that I generally pray the rosary is when I do feel a strong call to do so. Otherwise I don't usually pray it. And not because it's too long or difficulty meditating (which does happen occasionally). I pray the Liturgy of the Hours. I spend time in personal prayer. I seek the Blessed Mother's intercession, I consecrate much to her. But I do not have a strong call to pray the rosary.

[StColette]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1612459' date='Jul 30 2008, 09:57 AM']On the contrary, I think it is quite possible to have a devotion to the Blessed Mother without feeling the [b]call[/b] to pray the rosary consistently.[/quote]

I think so too. I devoted my entire Thesis for my BA to her. Several hundred hours of work and about 80 to 100 sources on her that I poured through. All for love of her and a clearer understanding of who she is in relation to the Holy Trinity.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='StColette' post='1612467' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:08 AM']I think so too. I devoted my entire Thesis for my BA to her. Several hundred hours of work and about 80 to 100 sources on her that I poured through. All for love of her and a clearer understanding of who she is in relation to the Holy Trinity.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
how cool!

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1612451' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:44 AM']Just want to point out that the preferred prayer of the Church is the Liturgy of the Hours, which is second only to the Mass, as it is an extension of the liturgy of the day. I also want to point out that the Rosary was originally meant for those who could not pray the Liturgy of the Hours. You see, it was in Latin, and those who could not read Latin were encouraged to pray 150 paternosters (Our Fathers, one of a handful of prayers they had memorized in Latin). That developed into praying the Rosary as we know it today.[/quote]

The Brown Scapular requires either the LOTH or Rosary. I started out praying the Rosary at night if I didn't get around to the LOTH...

Wait, the Rosary "developed"? I thought it was just given to St. Dominic? Developed sounds like it just kind of evolved from the repeated Our Father practice.

[StColette]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1612757' date='Jul 30 2008, 01:11 PM']The Brown Scapular requires either the LOTH or Rosary. I started out praying the Rosary at night if I didn't get around to the LOTH...

Wait, the Rosary "developed"? I thought it was just given to St. Dominic? Developed sounds like it just kind of evolved from the repeated Our Father practice.[/quote]

A form of the Rosary, meaning the beads and even the structure has been around for a very long time, even before the vision of Our Lady to St. Dominic. As Micah (Raphael) pointed out the earliest form that we know of comes from a lay form of the Liturgy of the Hours. Many of the lay people were illiterate during this time period, but did have certain prayers memorized such as the Our Father. This early form consisted of 150 Our Fathers, sounds pretty familiar to the modern day Rosary that we know of today. It became a very common practice for all the lay people, which is probably why Our Lady choose it as the form in which she wanted her Psalter prayed in, because the lay people were already so accustomed to the practice. Dr. Mark Miravalle, Prof at FUS and leading Mariologist, even teaches this development in his classes.

I would like to point out that the one prayer that I know of that we are obligated to pray is the Our Father. Micah and I were actually discussing this last night. It is the prayer that Christ taught us to pray and is often in most of the devotions I have ever come across. It's our foundational prayer, a prayer from the Lord, Himself.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='StColette' post='1612770' date='Jul 30 2008, 12:22 PM']A form of the Rosary, meaning the beads and even the structure has been around for a very long time, even before the vision of Our Lady to St. Dominic. As Micah (Raphael) pointed out the earliest form that we know of comes from a lay form of the Liturgy of the Hours. Many of the lay people were illiterate during this time period, but did have certain prayers memorized such as the Our Father. This early form consisted of 150 Our Fathers, sounds pretty familiar to the modern day Rosary that we know of today. It became a very common practice for all the lay people, which is probably why Our Lady choose it as the form in which she wanted her Psalter prayed in, because the lay people were already so accustomed to the practice. Dr. Mark Miravalle, Prof at FUS and leading Mariologist, even teaches this development in his classes.

I would like to point out that the one prayer that I know of that we are obligated to pray is the Our Father. Micah and I were actually discussing this last night. It is the prayer that Christ taught us to pray and is often in most of the devotions I have ever come across. It's our foundational prayer, a prayer from the Lord, Himself.[/quote]


TLOH was formally a required prayer of the clergy. It wasn't until the 2nd Vatican Councel that the laity where encouraged to chime in. I have had some experience praying the TLOH when I go to Catholic Underground and it is very beautiful,I especially like the line in night prayer, "Lord grant me a restful sleep and a peaceful death! Gee, that about covers it. Still, it is rather difficult for most lay people to pray because the prayers must be said at structured times. Also, we must remember that large portions of the world are still illiterate and/ or do not have access to a brievery.

I am in no way say that the Rosary is an obligatory prayer, all I have said is that it is a tremendous source of grace. It is easy to look at saints like MT and PP and say they were esp. "gifted" but the fact of the matter is that we are all called to love to that degree. We may or may not make it, but we should strive to achieve their level of holiness. And how many more Mother Theresas and Padre Pios would there be if more people prayed the Rosary---which is the crown of Marian Devotion? I'm sure there are some people who really aren't "called" to pray it, but my gut tells me that more people are called than not called. Some just don't want to, don't understand the prayer, or lack the discipline..

[StColette]

btw those who want to pray the Liturgy of the Hours and have difficulty doing so because it gets kinda confusing. This is a great book to get in order to help you out [url="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?r=1&ean=0818912561"]http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...;ean=0818912561[/url]

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1612876' date='Jul 30 2008, 01:56 PM']TLOH was formally a required prayer of the clergy.[/quote]

If I remember correctly, I believe this is still a requirement for all clergy.

[quote]Still, it is rather difficult for most lay people to pray because the prayers must be said at structured times. Also, we must remember that large portions of the world are still illiterate and/ or do not have access to a brievery.[/quote]

Which is exactly why the Benedictines established the practice of an early form of the Rosary for those lay people that did not have access to the Brievery or were illiterate.

[quote]I am in no way say that the Rosary is an obligatory prayer, all I have said is that it is a tremendous source of grace.[/quote]

You may not have said that it is an obligatory prayer, but your insistence that everyone should pray the Rosary or they are severely lacking something in their spirituality makes it sound as if you are saying it's obligatory. Many devotions are a tremendous source of grace. Going to Mass as often as you can is the largest font of grace that we can place ourselves into. Daily Mass attendance is not obligatory but a devotion and one that is filled with graces beyond that of any other devotion.

[quote]It is easy to look at saints like MT and PP and say they were esp. "gifted" but the fact of the matter is that we are all called to love to that degree. We may or may not make it, but we should strive to achieve their level of holiness.[/quote]

I strive to achieve the holiness that God has set forth not the holiness of other people. There can be a danger in comparing your holiness to others or striving for the holiness of certain people, because they are not in the same situation that you personally are in. I could never reach the holiness and prayer life of Bl. Teresa of Calcutta because she was a someone in the religious life vocation while I myself am in the married vocation. Our spiritual needs are both very different. While Bl. Teresa often prayed for the assistance she needed to carry out her mission with AIDS patients, I however need assistant in not yelling at my husband for leaving dirty clothes on the floor. Again, God has a path of holiness for each person. We can look to the Saints as examples of holiness but I would not say that we should necessarily try to copy their daily routine of devotions because the life of each person is different.

[quote]And how many more Mother Theresas and Padre Pios would there be if more people prayed the Rosary---which is the crown of Marian Devotion?[/quote]

I believe it can be put even more simply, how many more Mother Teresas or Padre Pios would there be if people just prayed. The crisis that we have today is that people do not pray at all or do not attend Mass for that matter. How much better would the world be if they actually prayed or attended Mass. Holiness of life is not dependent upon what devotion you pray, no matter how much grace can come from it, but on keeping the Commandments of God, which includes prayer and Mass attendance. Holiness is measured by your willingness to submit to the will of God whatever that might be.

[friendofJPII]

[i]You may not have said that it is an obligatory prayer, but your insistence that everyone should pray the Rosary or they are severely lacking something in their spirituality makes it sound as if you are saying it's obligatory. Many devotions are a tremendous source of grace. Going to Mass as often as you can is the largest font of grace that we can place ourselves into. Daily Mass attendance is not obligatory but a devotion and one that is filled with graces beyond that of any other devotion. [/i]

Agreed. But not everyone has access to daily mass, or even Sunday mass for that matter. (Many rural parishes do not have a priest and simply have a communion service on Sunday). The Rosary can be said by everyone anywhere.

[i]I strive to achieve the holiness that God has set forth not the holiness of other people. There can be a danger in comparing your holiness to others or striving for the holiness of certain people, because they are not in the same situation that you personally are in. I could never reach the holiness and prayer life of Bl. Teresa of Calcutta because she was a someone in the religious life vocation while I myself am in the married vocation. Our spiritual needs are both very different. While Bl. Teresa often prayed for the assistance she needed to carry out her mission with AIDS patients, I however need assistant in not yelling at my husband for leaving dirty clothes on the floor. Again, God has a path of holiness for each person. We can look to the Saints as examples of holiness but I would not say that we should necessarily try to copy their daily routine of devotions because the life of each person is different. [/i]

I'm not saying we should emulate Bl. Teresa l[i]ife [/i]as much as we should seek to emulate her level of [i]love.[/i] There is a difference.

[i]I believe it can be put even more simply, how many more Mother Teresas or Padre Pios would there be if people just prayed. The crisis that we have today is that people do not pray at all or do not attend Mass for that matter. How much better would the world be if they actually prayed or attended Mass. Holiness of life is not dependent upon what devotion you pray, no matter how much grace can come from it, but on keeping the Commandments of God, which includes prayer and Mass attendance. Holiness is measured by your willingness to submit to the will of God whatever that might be.
[/quote][/i]

Many people do not know how to pray. They may profess to a belief in God, but they think of God as some cosmic Santa Claus, and have no concept of the need to amend their life. I'm not saying the Rosary "is the be all end all" to guaranteed sainthood. What I am saying is that is a tremendous aid to those who are living according to teachings of the Church and are properly disposed. I am simply encouraging people to pray it, as Mary herself has done, in almost every approved apparition. As did Pope John Paul II and the pontiffs before him. As did the Saints.

Edited July 30, 2008 by friendofJPII

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1612958' date='Jul 30 2008, 02:28 PM']Agreed. But not everyone has access to daily mass, or even Sunday mass for that matter. (Many rural parishes do not have a priest and simply have a communion service on Sunday). The Rosary can be said by everyone anywhere.[/quote]

But those who do have access to daily Mass may select that as their devotion even if the Rosary is available to them. They may feel more called to that particular devotion than to the Rosary especially given the fact of what takes place at the Mass. Now those who do not have access to Mass (Sunday or Daily) then I would say some other form of devotion is probably necessary. Divine Mercy chaplet can be said just as easily by everyone as the Rosary can be.

[quote]I am simply encouraging people to pray it, as Mary herself has done, in almost every approved apparition. As did Pope John Paul II and the pontiffs before him. As did the Saints.[/quote]

I'm glad you encourage people to pray the Rosary, I do as well. But I do believe that when you said "However, I believe someone who refuses to pray the Rosary (or form of it) for whatever reason is lacking something substantial in their prayer life." it was definitely an incorrect statement to make. You do not have access to the details of their prayer life and your personal preference to the Rosary does not allow you to judge what you see as lacking in someone else's spiritual life.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1612876' date='Jul 30 2008, 11:56 AM']Still, it is rather difficult for most lay people to pray because the prayers must be said at structured times.[/quote]
i am pretty sure lay people do not have to pray it at the exact times (i remember, because i asked here before). you should just say morning prayer in the morning and not night; evening prayer in the evening and not morning; night prayer at night and not morning; etc.

[quote name='StColette' post='1612930' date='Jul 30 2008, 12:16 PM']You may not have said that it is an obligatory prayer, but your insistence that everyone should pray the Rosary or they are severely lacking something in their spirituality makes it sound as if you are saying it's obligatory.[/quote]
*ding, ding, ding* We have a winner!

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1612958' date='Jul 30 2008, 12:28 PM']Agreed. But not everyone has access to daily mass, or even Sunday mass for that matter. (Many rural parishes do not have a priest and simply have a communion service on Sunday). The Rosary can be said by everyone anywhere.[/quote]
so you are saying it is better to pray the Rosary than go to Mass? uh, no. it's not.

[StColette]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1613188' date='Jul 30 2008, 04:36 PM']+J.M.J.+

i am pretty sure lay people do not have to pray it at the exact times (i remember, because i asked here before). you should just say morning prayer in the morning and not night; evening prayer in the evening and not morning; night prayer at night and not morning; etc.[/quote]

That's what Fr. Dominic instructed us to do. If we aren't able to pray all the different parts of the Liturgy of the Hours then we should focus on morning and night prayer. He said just as long as you are praying morning prayer anytime other than at night and night prayer other than in the morning or day then you are doing fine. He has written several books and publications on the Liturgy of the Hours so I trust his judgment.

[friendofJPII]

[i]I'm glad you encourage people to pray the Rosary, I do as well. But I do believe that when you said "However, I believe someone who refuses to pray the Rosary (or form of it) for whatever reason is lacking something substantial in their prayer life." it was definitely an incorrect statement to make. You do not have access to the details of their prayer life and your personal preference to the Rosary does not allow you to judge what you see as lacking in someone else's spiritual life.[/i]

As I have said before, there is an objective and subjective dimension to this question. However, generally speaking, yes, someone who does not pray the Rosary somewhat regularly does have something lacking in their prayer life. Saints are not born, they are made. I highly doubt MT would have been MT or JP II would have been JP II without the grace they obtained from praying it. The fact that you cannot come up with a modern saint who did not have a devotion to the Rosary further illustrates the fact that it greatly aids the path to holiness. As does Divine Mercy (although it is not as well known, sadly). As does the Mass (and I never said it is better to pray the Rosary than go to mass, it is just that daily mass is not feasible for everyone). And as I have also stated, I have yet to meet someone who is devoted to DM, mass, adoration, is living the teachings of the Church and is striving for holiness that does not also have a devotion to the Rosary. They all go together because they are all spiritual powerhouses. Honestly, I do not have enough experience with LOTH to engage in more thorough discussion of it, but thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Edited July 30, 2008 by friendofJPII

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613205' date='Jul 30 2008, 04:58 PM']As I have said before, there is an objective and subjective dimension to this question. However, generally speaking, yes, someone who does not pray the Rosary somewhat regularly does have something lacking in their prayer life.[/quote]

Again this is your personal opinion and not the opinion of the Church. No matter if Mary, the Pope, and many Saints have called for it to be recited it does not mean that something is lacking in their prayer life. If that were true then someone who prays the Rosary but does not pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet would be lacking in their prayer life. We can go back and forth on this. Prayer is not about quantity but about quality. The quality of the DMC is the same as the quality of the Rosary when said devoutly, because both help lead a person to holiness.

[quote]Saints are not born, they are made. I highly doubt MT would have been MT or JP II would have been JP II without the grace they obtained from praying it.[/quote]

That's just an assumption

[quote]The fact that you cannot come up with a modern saint who did not have a devotion to the Rosary further illustrates the fact that it greatly aids the path to holiness.[/quote]

As I told you, I would ask my husband this because my knowledge of a multitude of modern day Saints is very limited. I would point out that it doesn't necessary illustrate that it aids greatly to the path of holiness, I think it does, because this would only focus on those Saints that the Church has recognized through canonization. All those who are in Heaven are Saints whether they are canonized or not and we can't possibly know the spirituality of ever single person in Heaven that has ever lived. That would be an interesting poll though lol

[quote]And as I have also stated, I have yet to meet someone who is devoted to DM, mass, adoration, is living the teachings of the Church and is striving for holiness that does not also have a devotion to the Rosary. . [/quote]

Allow me to introduce you to my husband and some of my friends and from what I've seen a few of the people involved in this thread.

[friendofJPII]

[i]Again this is your personal opinion and not the opinion of the Church. No matter if Mary, the Pope, and many Saints have called for it to be recited it does not mean that something is lacking in their prayer life. [/i]

Can we just ignore the fact that Mary, the Mother of God, the Popes, and the Saints have asked that the Rosary be prayed? Pope John Paul II even went through the trouble of creating new mysteries. We are supposed to take the advice the Holy Father gives us seriously. You are correct that I cannot judge of individual souls, but I don't think I'm being judgemental when I say the Rosary should play [i]a role [/i]in every mature Catholic's prayer life. And when I say "a role" I do not nec. mean that they have to pray it daily. I feel it should be held in high regard and prayed according to the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and one's state in life. .

Edited July 30, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Lil Red]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613239' date='Jul 30 2008, 03:40 PM']And when I say "a role" I do not nec. mean that they have to pray it daily.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
that is not what you've been saying this entire thread.

edit: oops, i agree you haven't said that everyone must pray it daily, but from your comments, it sure sounds like it.

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613239' date='Jul 30 2008, 05:40 PM']Can we just ignore the fact that Mary, the Mother of God, the Popes, and the Saints have asked that the Rosary be prayed?[/quote]

Not being devoted to the Rosary does not mean that we are ignoring Mary, the Popes, or the Saints. There have been many other devotions that have been called for just as strongly as the Rosary. And yes I know not everyone may have access to them, but in the average life of a person in American, Europe, etc. they are quite capable of getting access to them. I'm not referring to those who are in situations where they can't attend Mass, daily Mass, read, or go to Adoration. I'm speaking about the average person who, I'm pretty positive, has access to at least one of these. These options could help that person grow in holiness and nuture them in a way that the Rosary may not for their specific spiritual needs. Now for those who don't have access to these things then the Rosary is probably the best thing for them to pray in order to help lead them to holiness.
[quote]Pope John Paul II even went through the trouble of creating new mysteries. We are supposed to take the advice the Holy Father gives us seriously.[/quote]

Yes, we should take the advice of the Holy Father but in this situation the Holy Father is not speaking in a matter that is infallible. The same argument is used in discussion about the Iraq War and the Death Penalty. Those are the personal opinions of the Holy Father and do not have to be agreed with by the faithful.

[quote]You are correct that I cannot judge of individual souls, but I don't think I'm being judgemental when I say the Rosary should play [i]a role [/i]in every mature Catholic's prayer life.[/quote]

And I could say that Adoration or Liturgy of the Hours should play a role in the mature Catholic's prayer life, especially if they have access to them.

[quote]I feel it should be held in high regard and prayed according to the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and one's state in life.[/quote]

Which for some people the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or the state of one's life may not ever call them to pray the Rosary.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='StColette' post='1613292' date='Jul 30 2008, 05:06 PM']And I could say that Adoration or Liturgy of the Hours should play a role in the mature Catholic's prayer life, especially if they have access to them.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
moreso because both of these are 'higher' than the Rosary. Especially LOTH, which is second only to the Mass. not that i'm saying everyone should pray LOTH because it isn't necessarily everyone's cuppa.

[friendofJPII]

[i]Yes, we should take the advice of the Holy Father but in this situation the Holy Father is not speaking in a matter that is infallible. The same argument is used in discussion about the Iraq War and the Death Penalty. Those are the personal opinions of the Holy Father and do not have to be agreed with by the faithful.[/i]

Woooohhh...wait a minute....there is a major distinction when the Pope speaks about issues in politics and when he speaks on matters of faith. One may differ with the Pope on issues surrounding the implementation of the Iraq war or illegal immigration, (the Church has some specific guidelines regarding the Death Panalty, however) but when he gives us new mysteries of Rosary to pray we should take that seriously. After all, if you can't trust the Pope on matters of faith and modes of prayer, what can you trust him on?!!

Edited July 30, 2008 by friendofJPII

[friendofJPII]

I also think there needs to be a distinction between the LOTH and the Rosary. I'm not sure it is acurate to rate the LOTH "as second" (I really dislike this idea of rating prayers) because it is actually an extension of the mass-- it is a public liturgical prayer. The Rosary is a private devotion as is the Divine Mercy.