Didymus Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='Socrates' post='1613486' date='Jul 30 2008, 10:18 PM']Have you suggested it on Phatmass?[/quote] I believe I've brought up my thoughts on using the term "pro-choice" rather than always referring to those against us (on the abortion issue) as being pro-abortion or pro-death. I personally think my whole take on the issue to be quite positive. I can definitely start bringing more of it to phatmass if you are interested. I know that I appear to be a very negative person at times, and I apologize for that. [quote name='Socrates' post='1613486' date='Jul 30 2008, 10:18 PM']That looks like generally a good initiative (at least a better spending of our tax dollars than many other things). I'm afraid pro-life Dems are going to face a long uphill battle, though, especially with their own party in power (whose leaders are determined to keep it the Party of Death).[/quote] True that. I think the most important role pro-life democrat legislators play right now is the fact that they will always give pro-choice liberals a false sense of security when it comes to Congress. Many pro-choicers might see a Democratic majority in congress and may believe that they have the upper hand, until Congress perhaps votes on a bill that a pro-life Republican might present and find that it could very well pass. This might be wishful thinking, but I think it's something we all wish for when we are left with a Democratic majority in Congress. I guess with the current congress though nothing seems to ever get done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Didymus' post='1613587' date='Jul 30 2008, 10:21 PM']I believe I've brought up my thoughts on using the term "pro-choice" rather than always referring to those against us (on the abortion issue) as being pro-abortion or pro-death. I personally think my whole take on the issue to be quite positive. I can definitely start bringing more of it to phatmass if you are interested. I know that I appear to be a very negative person at times, and I apologize for that.[/quote] I would be interested in hearing your ideas, but there is no guarantee, of course, that I will agree with any of them. I think I missed that about using the term "pro-choice," but I'll have to strongly disagree with you there. Some years back I heard a speech by one of the leaders of the pro-life movement, who said it was very important that pro-lifers do not adopt the language of the enemy by using the term "pro-choice." Once we start using their language to refer to the abortion issue, we allow the debate to be on their terms, rather than ours. She said it actually took the pro-abortion side many years to come up with the term "pro-choice" to refer to their position, and it was a brilliant propaganda move, as it allowed them to shift emphasis away from abortion itself, and allowed them to support legalized abortion while claiming to not really be "for" it. The term "pro-choice" is an Orwellian euphemism based on a lie. It deliberately shifts the emphasis, and the debate, away from the facts of abortion itself, and towards a pleasant sounding abstraction ("choice"). After all, who could possibly be against the right to choose? If you oppose "choice," you are portrayed as some kind of enemy of human free-will. Heck, I'm pro-choice! I believe we should have the freedom to choose where to live, who to vote for, what career to pursue, whom to date or marry, which brand of goods to buy, what movies to watch, where to go to school, etc., etc. And I'm sure on a number of issues I'm more for freedom of choice than most in the "pro-choice" crowd. The truth remains though that some actions are not legitimate choices to make. I have no "right to choose" to murder, rob, or rape my neighbor. I have no right to choose to kill an innocent unborn child! The fact is that the "pro-choice" crowd does not stand for "choice" as some generic general principle, but specifically with regards to [b]abortion[/b]. And oftentimes "pro-choicers" are far from pro-choice when it comes to things that oppose abortion - such as the freedom of the people of the states to choose to have restrictions of abortion, or the choice of taxpayers not to pay for abortions with their tax money, or the choice of pro-lifers to protest at abortion mills. The truth is that "pro-choice" does indeed in reality mean "pro-abortion," and we should be honest and truthful in our language. Bowing to dishonest euphemistic language to be politically-correct in reality does no one a favor, and will do absolutely zilch to further the pro-life cause. And if you're going to insist we use the enemy's language with regards to "pro-choice," what of their other euphemisms must we adopt? Should we start calling abortion mills "reproductive health clinics"? Unborn children "fetal tissue"? We should be respectful of persons with wrong and mistaken opinions regarding abortion, but this does not mean we should adopt their euphemistic and propagandistic slogans when discussing and debating abortion. Our language should always reflect truth, not political correctness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Socrates' post='1614554' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:59 PM']I would be interested in hearing your ideas, but there is no guarantee, of course, that I will agree with any of them. I think I missed that about using the term "pro-choice," but I'll have to strongly disagree with you there. Some years back I heard a speech by one of the leaders of the pro-life movement, who said it was very important that pro-lifers do not adopt the language of the enemy by using the term "pro-choice." Once we start using their language to refer to the abortion issue, we allow the debate to be on their terms, rather than ours. She said it actually took the pro-abortion side many years to come up with the term "pro-choice" to refer to their position, and it was a brilliant propaganda move, as it allowed them to shift emphasis away from abortion itself, and allowed them to support legalized abortion while claiming to not really be "for" it. The term "pro-choice" is an Orwellian euphemism based on a lie. It deliberately shifts the emphasis, and the debate, away from the facts of abortion itself, and towards a pleasant sounding abstraction ("choice"). After all, who could possibly be against the right to choose? If you oppose "choice," you are portrayed as some kind of enemy of human free-will. Heck, I'm pro-choice! I believe we should have the freedom to choose where to live, who to vote for, what career to pursue, whom to date or marry, which brand of goods to buy, what movies to watch, where to go to school, etc., etc. And I'm sure on a number of issues I'm more for freedom of choice than most in the "pro-choice" crowd. The truth remains though that some actions are not legitimate choices to make. I have no "right to choose" to murder, rob, or rape my neighbor. I have no right to choose to kill an innocent unborn child! The fact is that the "pro-choice" crowd does not stand for "choice" as some generic general principle, but specifically with regards to [b]abortion[/b]. And oftentimes "pro-choicers" are far from pro-choice when it comes to things that oppose abortion - such as the freedom of the people of the states to choose to have restrictions of abortion, or the choice of taxpayers not to pay for abortions with their tax money, or the choice of pro-lifers to protest at abortion mills. The truth is that "pro-choice" does indeed in reality mean "pro-abortion," and we should be honest and truthful in our language. Bowing to dishonest euphemistic language to be politically-correct in reality does no one a favor, and will do absolutely zilch to further the pro-life cause. And if you're going to insist we use the enemy's language with regards to "pro-choice," what of their other euphemisms must we adopt? Should we start calling abortion mills "reproductive health clinics"? Unborn children "fetal tissue"? We should be respectful of persons with wrong and mistaken opinions regarding abortion, but this does not mean we should adopt their euphemistic and propagandistic slogans when discussing and debating abortion. Our language should always reflect truth, not political correctness.[/quote] you make very good arguments, and I would definitely like to pick your brain on them. I will start a new thread and lay out in more detail my thoughts on the language we use as pro-lifers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) I don't like Obama because he's pro-abortion (obviously) but also he doesn't support the principle of subsidiarity. I would say that McCain is more pro-life and and subsidiarity than Obama... but I can't vote anyway. If I could I don't know what I'd do. Edited August 1, 2008 by StThomasMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 I thought McCain was pro-life? "At its core, abortion is a human tragedy. To effect meaningful change, we must engage the debate at a human level." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin86 Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 [quote name='Fixxxer' post='1615655' date='Aug 2 2008, 07:43 PM']I thought McCain was pro-life? "At its core, abortion is a human tragedy. To effect meaningful change, we must engage the debate at a human level."[/quote] McCain supported embryonic stem cell research. That's really his only sin against the pro-life movement. It is just one issue and Obama is way more pro-choice than McCain. I honestly don't know if its even going to come up this election cycle as I've heard they've pretty much proven the only stem cells that have medical benefits are those from adults anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovechrist Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 [quote name='toservelove' post='1609996' date='Jul 27 2008, 01:54 PM']What would some of those other reasons be? For my part, I feel he is a lot of empty rhetoric, does not have enough experience, did not do a good job as a Senator in Illinois--for example, one of his low-cost housing projects ended up becoming pretty run down and appears to have been farmed out to supporters/ friends, his arms reduction stance is pure folly--Didn't the iron curtain come down? Why does he keep talking about Russia when the Middle East is of so much greater concern? Anything else to add?[/quote] he talks about Russia so much--BECAUSE--the principles and approach of his campaign are both strongly similar in comparison to the principles and foundation of Communism in Russia. and that my friends, is creepy as can be. i am anti-Obama. am i more of the latter than of being pro-McCain? the jury's still out on that one, because i still have some reading up to do on McCain's history. but as for now, being in a targeted swing state, i plan on voting for the lesser of two evils, John McCain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 I'm more anti-Obama than I am anti-McCain. McCain is pro-war, yes, but at least he has honor. He was offered an early release by his North Vietnamese captors, but he refused it because they would not release his fellow prisoners. He ought to know what it is like to be tortured, and he has been committed to treating prisoners humanely. He also seems opposed to military intervention in Iran, which is more than I can say for Obama. That being said, he is nominally opposed to abortion, but he supports embryonic stem cell research and the death penalty. -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 I am anti-abortion and anti-infanticide. 'Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 (edited) [quote]I am anti-abortion and anti-infanticide. 'Nuff said.[/quote] ditto Edited August 6, 2008 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydigit Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1617376' date='Aug 4 2008, 05:39 PM']I am anti-abortion and anti-infanticide. 'Nuff said.[/quote] yep. personally, i think they both stink, but that's not the point. we have to choose the one that will save babies, and there is only one that will lessen the Obamanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 [quote name='Norseman82' post='1610977' date='Jul 28 2008, 07:10 PM']Anti-Obama - yes. Pro-McCain - on budgetary matters, yes.[/quote] Do you still feel this way? I'm anti-Obama... McCain loses my respect by the day. I can say with all honesty that I have never been so depressed going into an election... even when it was clear that Clinton (who I did not support) won. At least I had respect for Bush I and Dole. I would gladly take eight more years of Clinton (Bill) than have four years with Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 [quote name='Norseman82' post='1610977' date='Jul 28 2008, 06:10 PM']Anti-Obama - yes. Pro-McCain - on budgetary matters, yes.[/quote] Agree plus on VP Biden scares me like if-not-more Obama does and Palin is just AWESOME!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jckinsman Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 [quote name='toservelove' post='1609802' date='Jul 27 2008, 08:06 AM']I keep hearing lots of anit-Obama things, some of it bordering on slander and calumniation. Some truth, some empty rhetoric. I see Obama '08 signs in house windows, on t-shirts, hats, bumper stickers--you name it. But, I hardly see anything about McCain. I can't find a bumper sticker. I haven't even seen a billboard or yard sign for him. And, in all this talk about why Obama should NOT be president, I hear very little about why McCain should be president. So, can you give me some positives about McCain--facts that I could use in conversation. I want something like Obama's stance is X, but McCains is Y and it's better because....OR Obama says X and McCain says Y--I think they're both wrong because...Thanks[/quote] McCain/Palin - Prolife The very foundation of the United States is Morally based,you lose that you have lost generations. If you do not fight for that,you HAVE BUILT YOUR HOUSE ON SAND.This great nation crumbles because we call ourselves "better" then china.......but are we really?????.... This comes into where Beloved Barack Hussain Obama will take us,one step closer to infantacide and "designer babies"......Not to mention a very socialistic government. oh wait John McCain,not my first pick,but the one I will pick. BHO-well polished talker,if you listen close he really says alot of nothing and wants your money to do it with. I really could go on and on but I do apologize if some of this was repeated,I have not read the whole thread,But as catholics we must always choose life period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 neither. but i think Obama is a terrorist because he is pro-abortion, anti-life. and anti-family. that's all i have against the man really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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