Total Consecration

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1614241' date='Jul 31 2008, 04:41 PM']I may agree with you on [b]consecration[/b] (against the advice of the Saints, however, who say that no soul should age beyond 19 years without consecrating itself to our Lady), but I do believe that [b]devotion[/b] of some form to the Blessed Mother is indeed for everyone. It is all over the Saints, the Tradition of the Church, and the rash of recent Marian Apparitions.[/quote]

Absolutely. There [b]must[/b] be some degree of devotion to the Blessed Mother. For myself, I see that devotion to be more passive... A trust and a humble submissiveness to her. More of an inward disposition than an outward devotion such as the consecration or a scapular or daily rosary, etc.

I do participate in these types of outward expressions of devotion, but they are not my primary means of devotion to the Blessed Mother. I pray the rosary here and there. I consecrate certain things or situations in my life to the Blessed Mother. And in my hardest times, I always find myself at her feet.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614108' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:21 AM']In the Bible, doesn't St. Paul often make remarks about being a slave to Christ? Such devout servitude, I believe, should only be given to Jesus Christ. While Mary is a remarkable woman and worthy of our honor, she is just that, a woman. She's not divine.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i have to quote from Archbishop Fulton Sheen in my response: (here he speaks of Our Lady visiting Elizabeth)

[quote]Notice how much Our Blessed Lady is made the link of bringing Christ to humanity. First of all, it was through her as a Gate of Heaven that he walked into this earth. It was in her as a Mirror of Justice that he first saw with human eyes the reflection of the world he had made. It is in her as a kind of living ciborium that he is carried to the first Communion rail of her cousin's home, where an unborn babe salutes him as the Host who is to be the Guest of the World. It is through her intercession at Cana that he brings his Divine Power to supply a human need. And it is finally at the cross that she who gave Christ to the world, now receives him back again in us who have the high and undeserved honor to call ourselves Christian.

Because of this intimacy I wonder if it is not true that as the world loses veneration for Christ's mother, it loses also its adoration of Christ. Is it not true in earthly relationships that, as a so-called friend ignores your mother when he comes to your home, sooner or later he will ignore you? Conversely, as the world begins knocking at Mary's door, it will find that Our Lord himself will answer.

If you have never before prayed to Mary, do so now. Can you not see that if Christ himself willed to be physically formed in her for nine months and then be spiritually formed by her for thirty years, it is to her that we must go to learn how to have Christ formed in us? Only she who raised Christ can raise a Christian.[/quote]
i this book!

[HisChildForever]

[quote]fyi i would be careful when saying that phrase, as it is a very popular protestant/anti-Catholic/anti-Mary sentiment.[/quote]

I believe in praying through Mary and the Saints for intercession, I think that the Rosary is beautiful, and I pray the Hail Mary a lot. But in my opinion, the wording - I'm saying the [b]wording[/b], not the [b]intention[/b] - of this consecration strikes me as very...I don't want to say "wrong" but perhaps "off" is the word I am searching for. It makes Mary come across as divine, and as wonderful and as extraordinary a woman she is, she's not divine.

[quote]74. What I say in an absolute sense of our Lord, I say with a relative sense of our Blessed Lady. Jesus, in choosing her as his inseparable associate in his life, death, glory and power in heaven and on earth, has given her by grace in his kingdom all the same rights and priveleges that he possesses by nature. 'All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace,' say the saints, and, according to them, [b]just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves.[/b][/quote]

I'm not comfortable at all with what I just bolded in this paragraph. Isn't this making Mary equal to Jesus, especially by saying that she has the same "power" as Him? This "power" being - well, divine and great!

[quote]75. Following therefore the teaching of the saints and of many great men we can call ourselves, and become, the loving slaves of our Blessed Lady in order to become more perfect slaves of Jesus.[b] Mary is the means our Lord chose to come to us and she is also themeans we should choose to go to him...[/b][/quote]

Again, the part I bolded makes me uneasy. Is this implying that we can only truly know Jesus Christ, our Savior, our God, through His human mother? [b]Please note that I am not trying to downplay her or her role[/b], but I think it's bizarre to say that you can only truly know God by first knowing Mary, a human being. It's...backwards. I'm not trying to start a debate, and I apologize if I'm coming across that way.

[MissyP89]

HisChildForever, I'm exactly where you are right now regarding our Lady. (And you're from Jersey, too! Nice.)

Pray for me? I will for you. Maybe Mary will smack us both upside the head about this.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614431' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:23 PM']I believe in praying through Mary and the Saints for intercession, I think that the Rosary is beautiful, and I pray the Hail Mary a lot. But in my opinion, the wording - I'm saying the [b]wording[/b], not the [b]intention[/b] - of this consecration strikes me as very...I don't want to say "wrong" but perhaps "off" is the word I am searching for. It makes Mary come across as divine, and as wonderful and as extraordinary a woman she is, she's not divine.[/quote]

I hear you. It still sounds... strange... to me as well. Then again, coming from the perspective of a convert, a lot of things started as strange to me. Even that Jesus, a man, could be God. Or that a piece of bread could be His Body and Blood. At first those truths evoked the same uncomfortable feelings from me. Mostly because they were new and well, strange.

[quote]I'm not comfortable at all with what I just bolded in this paragraph. Isn't this making Mary equal to Jesus, especially by saying that she has the same "power" as Him? This "power" being - well, divine and great![/quote]

But Mary, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, as Coredemtrix, and as Mediatrix DOES have the same power as Jesus Christ. Not on her own merit, though. What Jesus has by nature is Mary's by Divine Grace. At any moment God could revoke her power. But He doesn't.

[quote]Again, the part I bolded makes me uneasy. Is this implying that we can only truly know Jesus Christ, our Savior, our God, through His human mother? [b]Please note that I am not trying to downplay her or her role[/b], but I think it's bizarre to say that you can only truly know God by first knowing Mary, a human being. It's...backwards. I'm not trying to start a debate, and I apologize if I'm coming across that way.[/quote]

Don't worry, you don't sound as though you're trying to start a debate. These are good questions worth asking.

I do not believe that it is exclusive that you must know Mary to know Christ. On the contrary. However, by going to Mary, you can be assured that you are being led to Christ. I think the saying is, "The [b]surest[/b] way to Christ is through the Blessed Mother." The only way? No. The 'surest' way.

Mary plays such an extraordinary role in our salvation, more than we typically realize.

But as I mentioned before, I don't think this type of consecration is for everyone. Marian devotion is, but necessarily consecration.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1614435' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:30 PM']HisChildForever, I'm exactly where you are right now regarding our Lady. (And you're from Jersey, too! Nice.)

Pray for me? I will for you. Maybe Mary will smack us both upside the head about this. [/quote]

And I was at where both of you are just a few months ago. In fact, I'm still kind of there, in a way. Now I understand it... but it still makes me uncomfortable. Which is why I still haven't (and may never) consecrate.

But let me tell you this... I do not, for one minute, regret learning more about the Blessed Mother and exploring her role in salvation. It has been a blessing to me in so many ways.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1614435' date='Jul 31 2008, 07:30 PM']HisChildForever, I'm exactly where you are right now regarding our Lady. (And you're from Jersey, too! Nice.)

Pray for me? I will for you. Maybe Mary will smack us both upside the head about this. [/quote]

I think I'm just more concerned with how Marian devotion is expressed - which, many times, strikes me as worship - than Marian devotion itself. I believe that it's this "shakey" wording that Protestants jump on. When I need immediate help with something, or if I need to say a quick prayer for someone else, the first thing I think of is "Jesus, help me/him/her!" not "Mary, help me/him/her!" which is approved of by the Church, but why? I understand that it is taught that Mary would seek Jesus, but why do we need Mary to seek Jesus, when we can ask Him ourselves? Especially in dire situations. Would Jesus be more "willing" to help us if we ask Him "through" Mary? That whole concept just doesn't make any sense to me.

I never did like calling her "our Lady" since (and I'm probably going to get attacked for this one), Wiccans/Pagans refer to their female deity as "our Lady."

[HisChildForever]

[quote]But Mary, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, as Coredemtrix, and as Mediatrix DOES have the same power as Jesus Christ. Not on her own merit, though. What Jesus has by nature is Mary's by Divine Grace. At any moment God could revoke her power. But He doesn't.[/quote]

What baffles me is...where does this come from? What writings? (I know that if I say that Mary is barely mentioned in the Gospels I'll get the 'ole "Oh well we have Tradition" from someone...) Did Jesus come to a theologian and say "Hey, you have to write down some things about my Mom" ?

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614439' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:43 PM']I think I'm just more concerned with how Marian devotion is expressed - which, many times, strikes me as worship - than Marian devotion itself. I believe that it's this "shakey" wording that Protestants jump on.[/quote]

It certainly can be dangerous at times, especially those who are not seeking Christ in and through these devotions. And a lot of the times, it's just not explained well. That's the biggest reason, I think, for the strife between Protestants and Catholics about Mary. Misunderstanding.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614442' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:47 PM']What baffles me is...where does this come from? What writings? (I know that if I say that Mary is barely mentioned in the Gospels I'll get the 'ole "Oh well we have Tradition" from someone...) Did Jesus come to a theologian and say "Hey, you have to write down some things about my Mom" ?[/quote]

I'm going to let someone with more study (maybe lil red?) answer this, as I'm beginning to be pulled out of the realm that I have knowledge of. I believe the early Church Fathers have much to say about the Blessed Mother.

[mommas_boy]

Dear HisChildForever and MissyP89,

Blessings, sisters! I know exactly where you are at because I was there four years ago. The best advice that I can give you is to read through St. Louis de Montfort's True Devotion. Here is a link to the electronic form:

[url="http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Links/Trud_lnk.htm"]http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Links/Trud_lnk.htm[/url]

Or if you would prefer it in paper back, I recommend searching on Amazon or some such.

I don't have much time right now to pull up relevant passages, but have a look through Chapter 1, Necessity of Devotion to Our Lady and Chapter 4, Motives Which Recommend This Devotion.

When I get a moment, I will try to pull out some passages, but please be aware that school is starting for me very shortly, and this is my first year teaching! So, I have much to do ... Please read through just those two short chapters, and I think that they will answer your questions.

Pax Christi,
Kris

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
and read anything by Archbishop Fulton Sheen.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614431' date='Jul 31 2008, 05:23 PM']I believe in praying through Mary and the Saints for intercession, I think that the Rosary is beautiful, and I pray the Hail Mary a lot. But in my opinion, the wording - I'm saying the [b]wording[/b], not the [b]intention[/b] - of this consecration strikes me as very...I don't want to say "wrong" but perhaps "off" is the word I am searching for. It makes Mary come across as divine, and as wonderful and as extraordinary a woman she is, she's not divine.
I'm not comfortable at all with what I just bolded in this paragraph. Isn't this making Mary equal to Jesus, especially by saying that she has the same "power" as Him? This "power" being - well, divine and great!
Again, the part I bolded makes me uneasy. Is this implying that we can only truly know Jesus Christ, our Savior, our God, through His human mother? [b]Please note that I am not trying to downplay her or her role[/b], but I think it's bizarre to say that you can only truly know God by first knowing Mary, a human being. It's...backwards. I'm not trying to start a debate, and I apologize if I'm coming across that way.[/quote]

no worries, i felt the exact same way. i was on the lower floor of the plane on the way to Italy while i was reading this book, and i was also bewildered at the language he used. it was shocking for me, but i kept reading. i trusted in the people who gave me the book, in the Saint who wrote it, and the Church who approved of it. i guess i thought, "well this sounds almost wrong to me, but i am merely a baby in this faith, so i will trust they know what they're talking about and i will learn why later.." note that i wasn't wise enough to prove it was outright wrong, i just felt uncomfortable. this is where protestants make their error. they give up and dismiss it completely, instead of having a childlike faith and trusting.

i later realized that not only was the wording for his time appropriate, but even today, it is actually still not enough to express our love for her and her love for us. does that shock you even more? that we would want the wording to be even more shocking, if possible?

"no one can love Blessed Mary more than Jesus does," and that is still without crossing the line of divinity. He would never do that, nor would she.

trust and learn, and your heart will blaze into a consuming fire for God, for Jesus, and your love for Mary will ever grow, but it will never interfere with Jesus fire, because it is just so different and simply impossible. it's kinda like a math equation,

to love Mary = (to love Jesus)^squared;

therefore an increase in the left side = an increase in the right side, and the left can never be more than the right.


protestant thinking is more like

to love Mary = (to love Jesus) - (to love Mary) = FALSE! it is not a subtraction, it is an addition/multiplication.

love Mary = love Jesus
K(NO)W MARY. K(NO)W JESUS.

those who have eyes ought to see.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1615240' date='Aug 1 2008, 02:16 PM']to love Mary = (to love Jesus)^squared;

therefore an increase in the left side = an increase in the right side, and the left can never be more than the right.
protestant thinking is more like

to love Mary = (to love Jesus) - (to love Mary) = FALSE! it is not a subtraction, it is an addition/multiplication.

love Mary = love Jesus
K(NO)W MARY. K(NO)W JESUS.

those who have eyes ought to see.[/quote]

That rocks. We should use math more in our apologetics.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614442' date='Jul 31 2008, 05:47 PM']What baffles me is...where does this come from? What writings? (I know that if I say that Mary is barely mentioned in the Gospels I'll get the 'ole "Oh well we have Tradition" from someone...) Did Jesus come to a theologian and say "Hey, you have to write down some things about my Mom" ?[/quote]

there is tons and tons regarding Mary all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament. it takes a little more understanding past the kindergarten level which protestants refuse to cross over. i think the easiest and most obvious evidence for this, which even any protestant simply cannot deny, is the typology evidence for Blessed Mary's role as the "New Ark of the Covenant".

(easy) Mary, the Ark As Revealed in Mary's Visit to Elizabeth By Steve Ray
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5sb1.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5sb1.asp[/url]

(easy/medium discussion)
[url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=55698"]http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=55698[/url]

(medium/hard) Mary, New Ark of the Eternal Covenant By Scott Hahn
[url="http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=598&Itemid=40"]http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/index.ph...8&Itemid=40[/url]

==============

so yes, after you learn the above, you'll be saying, "yes, Jesus came to theologians and said "Hey, you have to write down some things about my Mom!"

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1615243' date='Aug 1 2008, 01:21 PM']That rocks. We should use math more in our apologetics.[/quote]

today is the feast of St. Alphonsus Liguori. he boasted that he "never delivered a sermon that the poorest old woman in the congregation could not understand." [url="http://www.universalis.com"]http://www.universalis.com[/url]

i think Mary would be that poor old woman in the congregation.. so are we.. so are protestants..

[Nun of That]

"you'd be crazy not to consecrate yourself. you can only benefit from being under Her mantle, and having her as your general when she crushes the head of the serpent! it's like having a spiritual bazooka over your shoulder, a sniper rifle with mounted shotgun, and the whole heavenly army behind you!"

Wow! That sounds pretty violent...

[HisChildForever]

[quote]there is tons and tons regarding Mary all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament. it takes a little more understanding past the kindergarten level which protestants refuse to cross over. i think the easiest and most obvious evidence for this, which even any protestant simply cannot deny, is the typology evidence for Blessed Mary's role as the "New Ark of the Covenant".[/quote]

I know that you're referring to Revelation 13, but that argument really doesn't work with me. That chapter references Israel (as the woman); suggesting that Mary is the woman is a huge stretch. I wrote more extensively on this in another thread, if you'd like for me to dig it up I can. But when it comes to Mary and Scriptures, when you say that there's "tons and tons" about her, I feel that it's more "Okay, let's see what verses we can connect to Mary" rather then "Wow, Mary really connects with this verse."

[picchick]

I also did this while I was in high school Very cool

[littlesister]

Yes, Montfort can sound pretty extreme - but just look at the publication date on his works! It was the age of French royalty and many of the sentiments found a parallel in popular devotion. Florid and (to a 21st century mind) over-the-top prose was common.
Try to get at the message of the devotion and ignore the envelope it comes in. The Consecration works - after decades living with it, trust me!