Spiritual Gifts

[Noel's angel]

No one has answered my question properly. Saying the forma ext. isn't the 'correct setting' is not a valid reason. Mass is Mass is Mass....the Holy Spirit is there at all Masses. It makes more sense to me that the settings in which people 'speak in tongues' are clearly engineered in order to make people feel like they should behave in this manner. They excite the senses etc.
Saying that one Mass is not the correct setting, but another Mass may be, is totally ridiculous because each and every Mass, is in essence, the same.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Noel's angel

[Deb]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1616159' date='Aug 2 2008, 09:05 PM']Pardon, but where does it say that tongues must be prayer?

And need I point out that the bible mentions several people cursing others and being justified in doing so.

The point is that if my tongues aren't a gift of the Holy Spirit, then what are they? Who gave them to me? Is it just gibberish? And on top of that, how can you be sure your tongues aren't just like mine - meaningless? Especially since even the people speaking in tongues usually don't know exactly what they're saying.

p.s. - the cursing occurs only when mad at myself. So I'm only ever cursing myself if that makes a difference.[/quote]

Cursing is something that is against God. Speaking in tongues is a gift. The Holy Spirit is not giving you the gift of cursing in tongues. For whatever reason you do it, it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit or God.
The only time I have ever heard people speaking in tongues is when they are in deep prayer and they are usually people of great holiness or priests. The Holy Spirit gives gifts like this to be used outward, for the build up of his church. They are words of praise and worship.
Like all personal revelation one must ask, is this in keeping with God's word and will. Giving someone a gift so they can curse at themselves? I think not.

[Deb]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1616083' date='Aug 2 2008, 07:22 PM']How come you never hear of the Holy Spirit 'leading' people to pray in tongues etc. during the 'Tridentine' Mass?[/quote]


No, the question is how come YOU have never heard of the Holy Spirit leading people to pray in tongues at the Tridentine Mass? Don't assume just because you haven't seen it, it isn't happening. If someone has the gift, it doesn't matter what Mass they are at. God works in all regardless of what language the Mass is in.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Treehugger' post='1615529' date='Aug 1 2008, 09:30 PM']Do you believe that such gifts as speaking in tongues, healing, and distinguishing between spirits are still gifts that the Holy Spirit bestows upon believers nowadays?[/quote]



[quote name='Treehugger' post='1615529' date='Aug 1 2008, 09:30 PM']do you maintain the view known as cessationism whereby these gifts are now a thing of the past and only something that applied to early Christians while the Church was in its infancy?[/quote]

THere are plenty of excellent books about the decline of spiritual gifts in the 4th and 5th centuries, and their return in the 20th, and if you would like titles, feel free to send me a PM. To give a short answer to your question, though, no.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1615550' date='Aug 1 2008, 10:21 PM']I believe in them, but I believe people misuse them. They pretend to have them for their own advantage, or delude themselves in a fervor.[/quote]

Yes, people tend to misuse pretty much any gift given to them by God. Human nature, i suppose, but this tendency doesn't invalidate the gift itself. It is not possible to use true charismatic gifts for one's own spiritual benefit. By their very nature, they are for the building up of the Church, not personal edification.

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1615599' date='Aug 1 2008, 11:24 PM']I have never spoken in tongues but know people that do. I doesn't really bother me as long as they don't try to push me to do the same. My feeling is that God will give me all that I need when I need. If he wanted me to have these gifts He would give them to me. Personally, I feel like God understands me better than I understand myself. He knows what is best for me.[/quote]

Amen to that; no one should try to push another person into using spiritual gifts.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1615890' date='Aug 2 2008, 12:51 PM']I don't understand the... point... of speaking in tongues or the heavy compulsions or some of the stuff that's been described here (or the typical charismatic experiences of the gifts). To me, it honestly is just kind of weird and well... frightening. Just about as frightening as demonic possessions. I mean, the gift of interpreting tongues, like at a Mass in a different language-- now THAT seems right. But to be mumbling in an incomprehensible language in a retreat house... to what point? Why would the Spirit make such manifestations.

It honestly just appears to be more like a gimic than anything else. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. I don't know. But I guess when I read this biblical passage about the gifts, I think of them being expressed more in everyday life-- not just at some retreat or something. People being able to discern spirits as they go through their day. Someone understanding a different language. Resting in the Lord.....

I don't know. I've never experienced the gifts in the "charismatic setting". I have had experiences in my life where I believe the Spirit has given me the gift to discern spirits or to simply rest in the Lord. So, I don't know. The fact that it just happens randomnly and without much purpose, that's what bothers me. And it makes it seem more like somesort of possession than anything else.[/quote]

i cannot judge what i think the Holy Spirit should and should not do - He pretty much blows where He wills. Also, i would be very, very hesitant to attribute any action of the Holy Spirit to demonic possession.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1616017' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:47 PM']What are the spiritual gifts, besides tongues? [/quote]

To name just a few charisms: prophecy, teaching, administration, pastoring, helps, music, wisdom, knowledge, encouragement, craftsmanship, celibacy, evangelization, poverty... see the [url="http://www.siena.org/qanda.htm"]Catherine of Sienna Institute's Q&A[/url] section for more info - they help people discern their spiritual gifts.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1616074' date='Aug 2 2008, 06:06 PM']Here is a blog post I wrote "On being Charasmatic"..[/quote]

Nice blog; thanks for sharing it.

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1616161' date='Aug 2 2008, 08:08 PM']But as in my previous post, if my tongues are psychological, how can we be sure that everyone else's isn't also?[/quote]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1616193' date='Aug 2 2008, 08:40 PM']But that still creates the question that if mine is psychological, how can we know everyone else's isn't also?[/quote]

Once, i was praying in tongues, and someone who'd studied languages was present - she was able to translate what i'd been praying - i'd been speaking a dead language. How could i possibly have made it up? i know countless other stories of similar things happening - people praying in languages/regional dialects they had never learned, and couldn't have possibly known...

In my opinion, i think we should hesitate to dismiss the power of the Holy Spirit as merely psychological, or worse, demonic. As with all spiritual gifts, we need to look at the fruits before we judge them...

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='Deb' post='1616983' date='Aug 4 2008, 05:51 PM']No, the question is how come YOU have never heard of the Holy Spirit leading people to pray in tongues at the Tridentine Mass? Don't assume just because you haven't seen it, it isn't happening. If someone has the gift, it doesn't matter what Mass they are at. God works in all regardless of what language the Mass is in.[/quote]

That wasn't the question. Even if it has happened and I have never heard of it, it certainly wouldn't seem to happen anywhere nears as often as it is claimed to at other times.

[Maggyie]

I heard an interesting story once. Can't remember if it was at Franciscan University but I think it was. This girl was praying in tongues at Mass, and a guest from Italy came up to her afterward and told her that she was praying in Italian! The girl had no training in Italian, had never heard it in her life, etc, and there she was speaking it perfectly all through the consecration and Holy Communion!

The only problem is that what she was actually saying in Italian during the Mass was horrible blasphemies against the Mother of God and the Eucharist, as the guest from Rome informed her. Score one for the devil.

I believe people can be moved "by the spirit," all right, but sometimes it's not the [i]Holy[/i] Spirit. I think a lot of people don't actually know what they're doing, they're just going with the flow, and this "field" for lack of a better word is really not the place for amateurs.

[Deb]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1617097' date='Aug 4 2008, 01:48 PM']That wasn't the question. Even if it has happened and I have never heard of it, it certainly wouldn't seem to happen anywhere nears as often as it is claimed to at other times.[/quote]


This is just my opinion, okay. Most people today do not understand the Holy Spirit nor work at bringing him into their life or attempting to discern his gifts. I would say that the majority of people who attend Tridentine Mass as their regular Mass are more rigid and tied to a very narrow definition of what God has in mind for them than people who attend a more Charismatic Church or who attend charismatic prayer groups or healing Masses or really work on the New Evangelization of the Church as JPII outlined.
The Tridentine Mass is beautiful and I and others I know do go now and then. Speaking in tongues does occur. Is it as outward as in a charismatic church where people are not made to feel out of place if they speak in tongues, no.
Do you know that one of the duties of all priests is to assist their congregation in discerning what their gifts are and assisting them in using them for the good of the Church? I doubt it is brought up at the Tridentine Mass.
The Catholics in the United States are not as open to the Charisms as they are in other places. There are over 100 million Catholics who consider themselves charismatic. So, about 1/10th of all Catholics.
JPII was speaking to a group of International Leaders for the charismatic movement in 1979 and he said, "I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church. I have said a daily prayer to the Holy Spirit every day since I was 11. This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action."

If we are to believe that all of the Word of Jesus Christ were meant for all mankind for all time, then surely we have to know that when he said he would be sending us a helper, the Holy Spirit who would guide us in our work, give us gifts, will dwell in our bodies and sanctify us, he meant every one of us who was baptized. The apostles were able to heal the sick, raise the dead, speak in tongues, evangelize etc. Those gifts are still being given out and they are to be used. It is Catholics who have forgotten this and now look on it as something strange and foreign. The Holy Spirit has been assisting the children of God since the beginning of time. He still is. One has to be open to him however. God does not force anything on anyone.

Actually, speaking in tongues is the least of all gifts and is usually not permanent. There are so many really wonderful usefull gifts that I wouldn't really waste any time wondering about tongues.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Deb

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617107' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:07 PM']I would say that the majority of people who attend Tridentine Mass as their regular Mass are more rigid and tied to a very narrow definition of what God has in mind for them than people who attend a more Charismatic Church or who attend charismatic prayer groups or healing Masses or really work on the New Evangelization of the Church as JPII outlined.[/quote]

The majority of people who attend the extraordinary form of the liturgy aren't as open to God/ working on evangelisation as people who attend charismatic liturgy?

Pardon me. I think that's sort of a rash judgment.

[quote]It is Catholics who have forgotten this and now look on it as something strange and foreign.[/quote]

You say that like there's some other group of people who haven't forgotten. That other group of people being non-Catholic. Like, Pentecostals haven't forgotten this. It's just Catholics who look on it like something strange. Is that what you meant to say?

[Maggyie]

[quote]I would say that the majority of people who attend Tridentine Mass as their regular Mass are more rigid and tied to a very narrow definition of what God has in mind for them than people who attend a more Charismatic Church or who attend charismatic prayer groups or healing Masses or really work on the New Evangelization of the Church as JPII outlined.[/quote]

"Charismatic" churches do not have a monopoly on the New Evangelisation.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1617138' date='Aug 4 2008, 09:49 PM']The majority of people who attend the extraordinary form of the liturgy aren't as open to God/ working on evangelisation as people who attend charismatic liturgy?

Pardon me. I think that's sort of a rash judgment.[/quote]

I agree. I read it and thought of my friends who are blessed enough to go to a wonderful TLM parish and thought, "Time to change your brush, perhaps?"

[fides quarens intellectum]

Time out, people - she prefaced her comments by saying:

[quote name='Deb' post='1617107' date='Aug 4 2008, 01:07 PM']This is just my opinion, okay.[/quote]