Spiritual Gifts

[Autumn Dusk]

i dunno about only the most faithful being given gifts. I've been given gifts and I'm hardly faithful at all (in the scheme of things)

[Lilllabettt]

I've heard one arguement that says God intervenes in spectacular ways in a response to faith ... these folks cite the multiple places in the Bible where the Lord asks people if they believe and then performs a miracle for them.

Other people argue that God does miracles when faith is at a low ebb, in order to help people to believe (eg Eucharistic miracle of lanciano) These people cite the Lord calming the storm, and when He said: even if you don't believe me, believe the works.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1626276' date='Aug 13 2008, 04:12 PM']i dunno about only the most faithful being given gifts. I've been given gifts and I'm hardly faithful at all (in the scheme of things)[/quote]
I tend to agree with you. It's God's action that provides these gifts. As sinful humans, we're really not worthy of *anything*, even the best of us, so all salvation and redemption is in God's court. This is just another extension of that. Yet again, God is that 'first cause'.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1626276' date='Aug 13 2008, 04:12 PM']i dunno about only the most faithful being given gifts. I've been given gifts and I'm hardly faithful at all (in the scheme of things)[/quote]

not sure which post you were responding to...

spiritual gifts are given to all at baptism. whether or not we use them is a different story.

Edited August 19, 2008 by fides quarens intellectum

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1631803' date='Aug 19 2008, 02:07 PM']not sure which post you were responding to...

spiritual gifts are given to all at baptism. whether or not we use them is a different story.[/quote]
Well let's not nitpick then!
This thread would be about the use of spiritual gifts, if we're going to be that specific!

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1632439' date='Aug 20 2008, 12:48 AM']Well let's not nitpick then!
This thread would be about the use of spiritual gifts, if we're going to be that specific! [/quote]

i thought it was

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1632554' date='Aug 20 2008, 09:24 AM'] i thought it was [/quote]
There ya go then. Haha

[Maggyie]

I was going over the materials I got from that retreat I went on where we had the bad experience with Fr. Cantalamessa. According to my notes the part that really bothered people was what he said about the need to be "baptized in the Spirit" to be an actualized Christian and begin to develop your charisms and gifts.

He said that basically in the old days of Christendom you could get by without being "baptized in the Spirit" because the culture was Christian. You just sort of got it by osmosis. But nowadays in secular society you can't acheive this (w/o a born again experience). People in my small group were upset because he seemed to be dissing infant baptism which of course is where spiritual gifts are given in the first place.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Maggie

[Autumn Dusk]

I do think baptism brings spiritual gifts but I do think we all must be aware of how our puritanical/culture of death society quelshes spirituality that allows for the working of the holy spirit. Heaven forbid we have a sign of peace in some churches...I mean really. How can you let the holy spirit move you when you won't move your body in church?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1635947' date='Aug 23 2008, 07:55 PM']I was going over the materials I got from that retreat I went on where we had the bad experience with Fr. Cantalamessa. According to my notes the part that really bothered people was what he said about the need to be "baptized in the Spirit" to be an actualized Christian and begin to develop your charisms and gifts.

He said that basically in the old days of Christendom you could get by without being "baptized in the Spirit" because the culture was Christian. You just sort of got it by osmosis. But nowadays in secular society you can't acheive this (w/o a born again experience). People in my small group were upset because he seemed to be dissing infant baptism which of course is where spiritual gifts are given in the first place.[/quote]
...because of course, being baptised as an infant has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit.
Or confirmation.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Problems with the "spiritual gifts" is:

1.) The Holiest of Saints, the Desert Fathers and Mothers, are never recorded as having partaken in them. Those that consider themselves to be "charismatic" and partake in these gifts often are bold and consider it to be on a higher level then other gifts, the Holy Saints never even mentioned it! The Desert Fathers rose people from the dead with mircles that were flowing through them, yet they never spoke in tongues.

2.) The Holy Saints that had gifts, such as healing, weren't bold with them, but rather often times hid them for the sake of not allowing it to corrupt with pride. They rarely used it publically, because they didn't want it to glorify themselves but Jesus Christ.

3.) It's written by St. John Chrysostom [if I'm not mistaken], that Pentecost was a reversal of the tower of babel. The Tower of Babel made everything chaotic to the point that nobody understood each other, where as Pentecost, everyone was in complete communication and praise to God. We don't see this in Chrismatics that "speak in tongues". Those Churches that partake in that usually do it together and none knows what the other is saying.

4.) We'd told in Holy Tradition [orthodox perspective] of a man [who's name slips my mind but some of you may know him] that tried to replace the Liturgy. He was destroyed by God. The Liturgy leaves no room for the charismatic "tongues", "slain in the spirit" [etc.], so adding a place for it in the liturgy is changing it. There is nothing more important the the liturgy.

5.) We have numerous examples of people that were exaulted by God and were cannonized as Saints because of their connection to the Jesus Prayer, we have no examples of such with "speaking in tongues". Rather the Holiest of Saints were slow with the tongue, were against speaking a thousand meaningless words.

6.) The scriptures themselves, if used to justify such a "gift", are incorrectly interpreted.

7.) We're told according to the Bible, to be vessels of self control. Those that "just have tongues come upon them" and go into a spasm to the point of just speaking in tongues, falling backward, etc. are not in self control.

8.) The Bible itself says that speaking in tongues are for unbelievers, not believers but that prophesy is for believers. Sadly most of these charismatic groups give lots of false prophesies.

If you read "comparative theology" by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, he dedicates a chapter to this: [url="http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Comptheo/index.html"]http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Comptheo/index.html[/url]

[quote]The Spiritual Gifts and The Gift Of
Speaking in tongues
1. The fruit of the Spirit is more important for your salvation than
the gifts of the Spirit
2. Gifts are not your own merit, therefore there is no reward for
them
3. Are gifts granted or are they requested?
4. The Pentecostal Movement and the gift of Speaking in tongues
5. Speaking in tongues is last in the order of gifts
6. Speaking in tongues is not a gift for all
7. Speaking in tongues should be for edifying the church
8. Speaking in tongues should be interpreted
9. What is the meaning of 'edifies himself'?
10. The Apostle's fight against the errors of Speaking in tongues
11. Speaking in tongues is a sign for unbelievers[/quote]

As I'd mentioned before, I'm writing from the Orthodox perspective obviously, but as an orthodox this is a point in which is going to be impossible for Orthodox to ever accept if our churches were to discuss reuniting.

Reza