Spiritual Gifts

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617163' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:22 PM']Time out, people - she prefaced her comments by saying:
[/quote]


Agree totally. It's just an opinion, not a fact. It's still a crummy opinion to have.

We shouldn't make judgements about the spiritual lives of individual people, let alone large groups, who practice Catholicism a little differently than we do. The words "some" or even "many" were not used here. The word used was "majority."

Edited August 4, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[Deb]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1617166' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:27 PM']Agree totally. It's just an opinion, not a fact. It's still a crummy opinion to have.

We shouldn't make judgements about the spiritual lives of individual people, let alone large groups, who practice Catholicism a little differently than we do. The words "some" or even "many" were not used here. The word used was "majority."[/quote]

You can call my opinion anything you want. Please, be as judgemental as you want.
What I notice the most is that those who refer to speaking in tongues as gibberish, those who look on it as not of God, those who state that they never heard of it happening at "Tridentine Masses," those who cast it spiritual gifts into a catagory of something made up and not relevant to todays Catholics are the ones who have been making judgements about the spiritual lives of others.

My opinion is based on what I have seen at many churches and my involvement with people of all ages who are Catholic. For example, my parents have been Catholics for 75 years. They know nothing of the work of the Holy Spirit. That is a product of their upbringing and unfortunately of most raised in the Catholic Church for at least the last hundred years. That is my opinion based on the Catholics I know. There are so many fallen away Catholics who spent their educational years in Catholic Schools who know nothing about the gifts of the spirit or about most of the doctrine of the Catholic Church. The fact that this topic comes up again and again and again on this site says that many do not have a clue.

So, if 90% of Catholics are not aware of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as something that is real and true and for them, would you not take that as a majority? Did I say anything at all that stated those who were not aware of this were not faithful, obedient Catholics with a great love of God? No, you all just infered that. That is your own defensiveness, not an attack by me. There are many paths to the top of the mountain. Only God knows what he wills for each of us. So, you may not like my opinion but, don't read things into that are not there, things that are coming from you, not me.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1617166' date='Aug 4 2008, 02:27 PM']Agree totally. It's just an opinion, not a fact. It's still a crummy opinion to have.

We shouldn't make judgements about the spiritual lives of individual people, let alone large groups, who practice Catholicism a little differently than we do. The words "some" or even "many" were not used here. The word used was "majority."[/quote]

indeed - hers was just an opinion; i agree we shouldn't judge the spiritual lives of individual people, etc...

i think the same thing applies to the spiritual gifts as a whole, though - i think we can look at the fruits of specific events, but can't just dismiss the gifts all together.

Personally, while i do not consider myself a Charismatic Catholic (and am by no means a member or advocate of the CCR), i do know the Holy Spirit moves and works in powerful ways that are beyond my limited understanding.

[Deb]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1617105' date='Aug 4 2008, 02:03 PM']I heard an interesting story once. Can't remember if it was at Franciscan University but I think it was. This girl was praying in tongues at Mass, and a guest from Italy came up to her afterward and told her that she was praying in Italian! The girl had no training in Italian, had never heard it in her life, etc, and there she was speaking it perfectly all through the consecration and Holy Communion!

The only problem is that what she was actually saying in Italian during the Mass was horrible blasphemies against the Mother of God and the Eucharist, as the guest from Rome informed her. Score one for the devil.

I believe people can be moved "by the spirit," all right, but sometimes it's not the [i]Holy[/i] Spirit. I think a lot of people don't actually know what they're doing, they're just going with the flow, and this "field" for lack of a better word is really not the place for amateurs.[/quote]

The first thing the girl of this story who was praying in tongues should have known is that if she was doing it during the consecration and Holy communion, it would not be of God to begin with. She should not be speaking aloud during that time anymore than anyone else should be.
It does sound like a story for amateurs.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617179' date='Aug 4 2008, 02:49 PM']Did I say anything at all that stated those who were not aware of this were not faithful, obedient Catholics with a great love of God? No, you all just infered that. That is your own defensiveness, not an attack by me.[/quote]

Deb, i do hope you aren't including me in your "you all..."


Anyway, i've got one for you guys - it is easy to remember: grace = sacramental + charismatic

If you don't believe me, look up CCC #2003 - actually, i will post it for you:
[quote]Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character—sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues—charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54[/quote]


This thread is about the charismatic graces, otherwise known as spiritual gifts, which are meant to build up the Church.

So, someone earlier said the "Charismatics" do not have the monopoly on the New Evangelization. i agree. It is my hope that the New Evangelization will soon sweep through every corner and spirituality of the Church. However, i don't see how it is going to do so without the spiritual gifts/charisms (as properly understood). I also don't see how it will do so without the sacraments, either. We need them both.

[Deb]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617180' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:49 PM']indeed - hers was just an opinion; i agree we shouldn't judge the spiritual lives of individual people, etc...

i think the same thing applies to the spiritual gifts as a whole, though - i think we can look at the fruits of specific events, but can't just dismiss the gifts all together.

Personally, while i do not consider myself a Charismatic Catholic (and am by no means a member or advocate of the CCR), i do know the Holy Spirit moves and works in powerful ways that are beyond my limited understanding.[/quote]

Exactly.

For what man knows God's counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends? For the deliberations of mortals are timid, and unsure are our plans. [url="http://"] For the corruptible body burdens the soul and the earthen shelter weighs down the mind that has many concerns. [/url] And scarce do we guess the things on earth, and what is within our grasp we find with difficulty; but when things are in heaven, who can search them out? <A name=v17> Or who ever knew your counsel, except you had given Wisdom and sent your holy spirit from on high? And thus were the paths of those on earth made straight, and men learned what was your pleasure, and were saved by Wisdom.


Mortals have a hard time understanding this world and the concrete things around them and an even harder time understanding the supernatural workings of God.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617179' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:49 PM']For example, my parents have been Catholics for 75 years. They know nothing of the work of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

See, I don't think anyone should make that comment about anyone else. You have that opinion from looking at the outside. But do you really know? Do you mean that your parents are especially difficult, or uncharitable people, and that this is evidence they don't have a relationship with the 3rd Person of the Holy Trinity? Or do you mean they aren't into Charistmatic spirituality? Just because a person doesn't exhibit any of the outward signs, or pray in the Charismatic style, doesn't mean they haven't been touched by the Holy Spirit, or are unfamiliar with Him.


[quote]So, if 90% of Catholics are not aware of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as something that is real and true and for them, would you not take that as a majority? Did I say anything at all that stated those who were not aware of this were not faithful, obedient Catholics with a great love of God?[/quote]


You said what you said not about Catholics in general, but about a group of Catholics in particular, people who attend the extraordinary form of the Mass on a regular basis:

[quote]I would say that the majority of people who attend Tridentine Mass as their regular Mass are more rigid and tied to a very narrow definition of what God has in mind for them than people who attend a more Charismatic Church or who attend charismatic prayer groups or healing Masses or really work on the New Evangelization of the Church as JPII outlined.[/quote]

You compared that group of people to people who attend charismatic liturgies. You said that the majority of people in the first category are "rigid" and have a narrower understanding of what God wants to do with them, and implied they "don't really work" on the new evangelisation as JPII intended. I don't think that's a wise thing to say about other faithful Catholics.

You say that 90% of Catholics are not aware of the gifts of the Holy Spirit ... what is your definition of "aware?" A person can be aware of the Holy Spirit and have a personal relationship with Him without worshipping in a charismatic style or exhibiting outward charismatic gifts.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617000' date='Aug 4 2008, 01:06 PM']i cannot judge what i think the Holy Spirit should and should not do - He pretty much blows where He wills. Also, i would be very, very hesitant to attribute any action of the Holy Spirit to demonic possession.[/quote]

I never attributed the actions to demonic possession, I said it reminded me of it. Nor did I say that those actions even were of the Holy Spirit in the first place.

*shrug*

It just seems strange to me, that's all. And it does kind of make me feel uncomfortable. I can't help it. Maybe I'm not being 'open to the Spirit', but I try not to have any prejudgements about this stuff. But I can't help what it makes me feel or reminds me of.

[Deb]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1617191' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:05 PM']See, I don't think anyone should make that comment about anyone else. You have that opinion from looking at the outside. But do you really know? Do you mean that your parents are especially difficult, or uncharitable people, and that this is evidence they don't have a relationship with the 3rd Person of the Holy Trinity? Or do you mean they aren't into Charistmatic spirituality? Just because a person doesn't exhibit any of the outward signs, or pray in the Charismatic style, doesn't mean they haven't been touched by the Holy Spirit, or are unfamiliar with Him.

[b][i]I can make opinions on my parents because I know them. Because they have told me they don't know the Holy Spirit and they do not understand his workings. I can say that because they have asked me how they can bring the Holy Spirit into their lives. I can say that because they have accompanied me to healing Masses. For very conservative Catholics, this was a totally foreign thing to them. Why would you assume it is because they are difficult or uncharitable people? Your mind immediately jumps to the negative in every circumstance. You assume so much for someone who knows so little. [/i][/b]



You said what you said not about Catholics in general, but about a group of Catholics in particular, people who attend the extraordinary form of the Mass on a regular basis.

[b]My comment, as I prefaced, in my opinion is based on the people I know who attend Tridentine Mass as their regular Mass. Yeah, they are very orthodox and rigid. They actually remind me of "stiff necked" people, the ones in the bible who were more concerned with form than anything else. That is where I get my opinion from. [/b]

You compared that group of people to people who attend charismatic liturgies. You said that the majority of people in the first category are "rigid" and have a narrower understanding of what God wants to do with them. I don't think that's a wise thing to do.

[b]Again, the people that I know are not as open minded about religious practice, religious thought or religious action as those I know who are more Charismatic. I also know many people who are Charismatic who do not belong to a charismatic church. For your education, the liturgy in both churches is the same. The Catholic church is the same whether in Latin or English or Swahili etc. The music may be different, the substance is the same. They are all centered around the Eucharist and are the highest form of prayer to our Lord. [/b]

You say that 90% of Catholics are not aware of the gifts of the Holy Spirit ... what is your definition of "aware?" A person can be aware of the Holy Spirit and have a personal relationship with Him without worshipping in a charismatic style or exhibiting outward charismatic gifts.[/quote]

[b]I mean having a clue as to who he is, what he does and how necessary he is to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. He was not mentioned in the church, beyond his name, forty to fifty years ago. In fact, he used to be the Holy Ghost. No one has to exhibit any outward Charismatic gifts to know him and I never stated that. However, if there were a majority of people who knew and understood him, we wouldn't be having this discussion nor would you be so defensive about it. [/b]

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1617105' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:03 PM']I heard an interesting story once. Can't remember if it was at Franciscan University but I think it was. This girl was praying in tongues at Mass, and a guest from Italy came up to her afterward and told her that she was praying in Italian! The girl had no training in Italian, had never heard it in her life, etc, and there she was speaking it perfectly all through the consecration and Holy Communion!

The only problem is that what she was actually saying in Italian during the Mass was horrible blasphemies against the Mother of God and the Eucharist, as the guest from Rome informed her. Score one for the devil.

I believe people can be moved "by the spirit," all right, but sometimes it's not the [i]Holy[/i] Spirit. I think a lot of people don't actually know what they're doing, they're just going with the flow, and this "field" for lack of a better word is really not the place for amateurs.[/quote]

This is another reason why people speaking in tongues is a bit bothersome to me. As I said in my previous post, I have read quite a few things which state that tongues should only be spoken/prayed in when there is a translator present. Can you imagine how often some of these people could be doing this and not even know!?!?

[Deb]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617189' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:04 PM']Deb, i do hope you aren't including me in your "you all..."

[b]No, you are always a well balanced boat in the midst of a storm. [/b]


Anyway, i've got one for you guys - it is easy to remember: grace = sacramental + charismatic

If you don't believe me, look up CCC #2003 - actually, i will post it for you:



This thread is about the charismatic graces, otherwise known as spiritual gifts, which are meant to build up the Church.

So, someone earlier said the "Charismatics" do not have the monopoly on the New Evangelization. i agree. It is my hope that the New Evangelization will soon sweep through every corner and spirituality of the Church. However, i don't see how it is going to do so without the spiritual gifts/charisms (as properly understood). I also don't see how it will do so without the sacraments, either. We need them both.[/quote]

[b]Thank you. The sacraments give us strength and grace and the gifts help us build up the church. All are needed. All should be known and utilized. [/b]

[Lilllabettt]

[quote]I can make opinions on my parents because I know them. Because they have told me they don't know the Holy Spirit and they do not understand his workings. I can say that because they have asked me how they can bring the Holy Spirit into their lives. I can say that because they have accompanied me to healing Masses. For very conservative Catholics, this was a totally foreign thing to them. Why would you assume it is because they are difficult or uncharitable people? Your mind immediately jumps to the negative in every circumstance. You assume so much for someone who knows so little.[/quote]

Please re-read what I said. What I'm trying to do is determine if you think that knowing the Holy Spirit necessarily entails embracing charismatic styles of prayer or worship. I did not assume your parents were uncharitable people. I asked you if they were, because I'm wondering what you meant when you said they didn't know the Holy Spirit.


[quote]My comment, as I prefaced, in my opinion is based on the people I know who attend Tridentine Mass as their regular Mass. Yeah, they are very orthodox and rigid. They actually remind me of "stiff necked" people, the ones in the bible who were more concerned with form than anything else. That is where I get my opinion from.[/quote]

Your personal experience of individuals who worship a ceratain way should not lead you to make blanket judgements about the majority of people who do so. The human brain tends towards stereotypes because they are sometimes a useful way of organizing information. It's important to resist this tendency where people's spiritual lives are concerned. Also, is their something wrong with being "very orthodox?" Does "very orthodox" mean " rigid" to you?

[quote]For your education, the liturgy in both churches is the same. The Catholic church is the same whether in Latin or English or Swahili etc. The music may be different, the substance is the same. They are all centered around the Eucharist and are the highest form of prayer to our Lord.[/quote]

Thank you. A person can never be reminded of this too often.

[quote]He was not mentioned in the church, beyond his name, forty to fifty years ago. In fact, he used to be the Holy Ghost.[/quote]

I think the Holy Ghost/ Holy Spirit thing is a matter of semantics.

[quote]if there were a majority of people who knew and understood him, we wouldn't be having this discussion nor would you be so defensive about it.[/quote]

I apologise for sounding defensive. I know some Charismatics who believe that people who choose not to participate in the movement are "rigid" and not "open" to the Holy Spirit. I know that not all Charismatics believe this. I'm trying to find out if you think this way or not.

Do you think people who question the Gifts as practiced/emphasized by the modern Charismatic Movement necessarily do not know or understand the Holy Spirit? (Please keep in mind that this is not a rhetorical question. I'm not meaning to imply anything about your position by asking it. I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.)

Edited August 4, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[Deb]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1617231' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:42 PM']Please re-read what I said. What I'm trying to do is determine if you think that knowing the Holy Spirit necessarily entails embracing charismatic styles of prayer or worship. I did not assume your parents were uncharitable people. I asked you if they were, because I'm wondering what you meant when you said they didn't know the Holy Spirit.




Your personal experience of individuals who worship a ceratain way should not lead you to make blanket judgements about the majority of people who do so. The human brain tends towards stereotypes because they are sometimes a useful way of organizing information. It's important to resist this tendency where people's spiritual lives are concerned. Also, is their something wrong with being "very orthodox?" Does "very orthodox" mean " rigid" to you?



Thank you. A person can never be reminded of this too often.



I think the Holy Ghost/ Holy Spirit thing is a matter of semantics.



I apologise for sounding defensive. I know some Charismatics who believe that people who choose not to participate in the movement are "rigid" and not "open" to the Holy Spirit. I know that not all Charismatics believe this. I'm trying to find out if you think this way or not.

Do you think people who question the Gifts as practiced/emphasized by the modern Charismatic Movement necessarily do not know or understand the Holy Spirit? (Please keep in mind that this is not a rhetorical question. I'm not meaning to imply anything about your position by asking it. I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.)[/quote]

I believe that people who immediately put down the gifts of the Spirit are rigid and not open to the Holy Spirit. I believe that people who think any one way of worship in the Church, Tridentine, Charismatic, Ordinary, is the only way, are rigid and not open to the Holy Spirit. I do believe that those who question the gifts as used by the Charismatic movement do not understand or know the Holy Spirit. If they did, they would know about his gifts. They would be asking for his gifts. If one does not believe in his gifts, how can they possibly know the Holy Spirit? To me, they are inseparable.
One can know who the Holy Spirit is without [u]knowing[/u] him and one does not have to exhibit a gift or even have knowledge of a gift to know the reality of his gifts and his power in our lives. To out and out discard his gifts as something not quite right is to not know the Holy Spirit.
Does this make sense?

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617244' date='Aug 4 2008, 05:54 PM']I believe that people who immediately put down the gifts of the Spirit are rigid and not open to the Holy Spirit. I believe that people who think any one way of worship in the Church, Tridentine, Charismatic, Ordinary, is the only way, are rigid and not open to the Holy Spirit. I do believe that those who question the gifts as used by the Charismatic movement do not understand or know the Holy Spirit. If they did, they would know about his gifts. They would be asking for his gifts. If one does not believe in his gifts, how can they possibly know the Holy Spirit? To me, they are inseparable.[/quote]

[quote]To out and out discard his gifts as something not quite right is to not know the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

This is the real sticky wicket, I think.

You say that people who think one way of worship in the Church is the only way are rigid and not open to the Holy Spirit. (I agree.) Do you feel that the modern charismatic movement's interpretation/practice of the gifts is the only correct way?

I think many Catholics do not "believe" in the gifts as interpreted/practiced by the charismatic movement. They nevertheless pray to the Holy Spirit, and ask Him for wisdom, knowledge, faith, spiritual/physical healing. They really believe in Him, and in His action in their lives.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1615890' date='Aug 2 2008, 12:51 PM']I don't understand the... point... of speaking in tongues or the heavy compulsions or some of the stuff that's been described here (or the typical charismatic experiences of the gifts). To me, it honestly is just kind of weird and well... frightening. Just about as frightening as demonic possessions. I mean, the gift of interpreting tongues, like at a Mass in a different language-- now THAT seems right. But to be mumbling in an incomprehensible language in a retreat house... to what point? Why would the Spirit make such manifestations.

It honestly just appears to be more like a gimic than anything else. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. I don't know. But I guess when I read this biblical passage about the gifts, I think of them being expressed more in everyday life-- not just at some retreat or something. People being able to discern spirits as they go through their day. Someone understanding a different language. Resting in the Lord.....

I don't know. I've never experienced the gifts in the "charismatic setting". I have had experiences in my life where I believe the Spirit has given me the gift to discern spirits or to simply rest in the Lord. So, I don't know. The fact that it just happens randomnly and without much purpose, that's what bothers me. And it makes it seem more like somesort of possession than anything else.[/quote]


[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617000' date='Aug 4 2008, 11:06 AM']i cannot judge what i think the Holy Spirit should and should not do - He pretty much blows where He wills. Also, i would be very, very hesitant to attribute any action of the Holy Spirit to demonic possession.[/quote]


[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1617195' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:13 PM']I never attributed the actions to demonic possession, I said it reminded me of it. Nor did I say that those actions even were of the Holy Spirit in the first place.

*shrug*

It just seems strange to me, that's all. And it does kind of make me feel uncomfortable. I can't help it. Maybe I'm not being 'open to the Spirit', but I try not to have any prejudgements about this stuff. But I can't help what it makes me feel or reminds me of.[/quote]

i went back and re-read your original post. You are right - you didn't attribute it directly - just came a wee bit too close to doing so at the very end of your post for my comfort. My apologies for misunderstanding you, and, yes, by all means, you are certainly entitled to your own feelings/reactions.