Spiritual Gifts

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1617201' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:19 PM']This is another reason why people speaking in tongues is a bit bothersome to me. As I said in my previous post, I have read quite a few things which state that tongues should only be spoken/prayed in when there is a translator present. Can you imagine how often some of these people could be doing this and not even know!?!?[/quote]

Well, maybe we could distinguish between personal prayer tongues and prophetic tongues. The latter require interpretation.

As to the FUS anecdote, as Deb said, if the person was praying in tongues during the consecration, that's clue #1 that something was amiss.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617204' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:22 PM'][b]No, you are always a well balanced boat in the midst of a storm. [/b][/quote]

No one's ever said anything so kind. You're too nice.


[quote name='Deb' post='1617204' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:22 PM'][b]Thank you. The sacraments give us strength and grace and the gifts help us build up the church. All are needed. All should be known and utilized. [/b][/quote]

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1617275' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:34 PM']This is the real sticky wicket, I think.

You say that people who think one way of worship in the Church is the only way are rigid and not open to the Holy Spirit. (I agree.) Do you feel that the modern charismatic movement's interpretation/practice of the gifts is the only correct way?

I think many Catholics do not "believe" in the gifts as interpreted/practiced by the charismatic movement. They nevertheless pray to the Holy Spirit, and ask Him for wisdom, knowledge, faith, spiritual/physical healing. They really believe in Him, and in His action in their lives.[/quote]

Just for the sake of clarity, i would be much obliged if you would explain, in your own words, the differentiation you are making between the spiritual gifts/charisms as talked about in the CCC, and "the modern charismatic movement's interpretation/practice of the gifts" or "the gifts as interpreted/practiced by the charismatic movement." Sorry for being a bit confused - a sketch of your distinction would really help me. Thanks.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617302' date='Aug 4 2008, 07:04 PM']Just for the sake of clarity, i would be much obliged if you would explain, in your own words, the differentiation you are making between the spiritual gifts/charisms as talked about in the CCC, and "the modern charismatic movement's interpretation/practice of the gifts" or "the gifts as interpreted/practiced by the charismatic movement." Sorry for being a bit confused - a sketch of your distinction would really help me. Thanks.[/quote]

I don't mean to make a distinction between the CCC and the charismatic movement. I guess my point is that people have different ideas about what the gifts of the Holy Spriit are, or what they mean ...

Some Catholics think of the gift of tongues as the ability to speak and be understood by people who understand other languages, as in St. Francis preaching to the pagans, and they distinguish this from the more usual modern charismatic experience of speaking in angel languages. Some Catholics would refer to ecstasies experienced by the Saints after receiving the Eucharist and see that as different from the modern experience of being slain in the Spirit.

These are just some examples of what I mean. What does the gift of tongues mean? What does the gift of healing mean? etc. I think the Charismatic movement has an interpretation, and other people may think differently. I think a person can believe in the gifts and the power of the Holy Spirit without buying into the organizing principles of the Charismatic movement.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617287' date='Aug 4 2008, 06:48 PM']Well, maybe we could distinguish between personal prayer tongues and prophetic tongues. The latter require interpretation.[/quote]


I haven't heard of this distinction being made before. If you could point me to a document (scripture, magisterium whatever,) where this is pointed out, I would certainly appreciate it

If a person doesn't know what they're saying, and there is no interpreter, I don't know how they'd be able to tell if what they're praying is prophetic or just personal prayer. How is one to know the difference?

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617287' date='Aug 4 2008, 06:48 PM']Well, maybe we could distinguish between personal prayer tongues and prophetic tongues. The latter require interpretation.

As to the FUS anecdote, as Deb said, if the person was praying in tongues during the consecration, that's clue #1 that something was amiss.[/quote]

I would still think that both types required an interpreter. I know a lot of people who speak tongues do it on the fly whenever they want, its not a spontaneous thing. That's another thing which bothers me... it just doesn't seem to coincide with what I have read about true gifts from the Holy Spirit. I have a friend who graduated from FUS and she was praying with another student one night and he told her "I'm going to pray in tongues now" just because he wanted to do it. She later told me that it really scared her.

The girl in Mass for example (I agree with Deb's assessment on that one, and unfortunately this happens all too frequently at FUS), suppose she spoke in tongues at other prayer times as well. It could just as easily have been blasphemies those other times.

I probably have sounded rather negative towards the gifts of the Holy Spirit in this thread and thats not my intention. I do believe they exist, but I am leery of what might not be true gifts. I think that before embracing these things too closely we should try our best to be sure of where they come from.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1617317' date='Aug 4 2008, 05:27 PM']I don't mean to make a distinction between the CCC and the charismatic movement. I guess my point is that people have different ideas about what the gifts of the Holy Spriit are, or what they mean ...[/quote]

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1617328' date='Aug 4 2008, 05:40 PM']I haven't heard of this distinction being made before. If you could point me to a document (scripture, magisterium whatever,) where this is pointed out, I would certainly appreciate it

If a person doesn't know what they're saying, and there is no interpreter, I don't know how they'd be able to tell if what they're praying is prophetic or just personal prayer. How is one to know the difference?[/quote]

- Public tongues: some follow the glossolalia witnessed on Pentecost, as a reversal of the Tower of Babel (Acts 2:4-6, NAB):

[quote]And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language.[/quote]

Just after that, Peter preached to the masses present, i.e., a prophetic speech was understood directly from his lips by his hearers without an interpreter. Then, in 1 Corinthians 12:10, in a listing of charisms, Paul talked about the charism of interpretation of tongues, from which we can understand that not all tongues were directly understood as on the day of Pentecost, but rather, by the time he was writing, prophetic tongues were being spoken that required an interpreter (see also 1 Cor 14:6f).

- Personal prayer tongues: a personal prayer encounter, through the power of the Holy Spirit, with the Lord, when we feel we have no words adequate to pray with (Romans 8:26-27, NAB):

[quote]In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God's will.[/quote]

As to how to tell the difference: if you are at home, in your room, praying intimately through the Holy Spirit in a prayer tongue, and no one is around to interpret, that is a personal prayer tongue. The other is a public charism for the building up of the Church, which, according to St. Paul, requires an interpreter: for example, one person receives a prophetic tongue, and speaks it, then another person present (or more than one) receives the gift of an interpretation, and teh Holy SPirit inspires them to utter aloud the interpretation they received.

Hope this helps a little. i threw the suggestion out there to distinguish between the two because i know that some people who are comfortable with prophetic tongues aren't as comfortable with personal tongues, so if we are going to debate the legitimacy of "tongues," i thought it couldn't hurt to be specific.


edit: removed a repeated word.

Edited August 5, 2008 by fides quarens intellectum

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1617360' date='Aug 4 2008, 06:16 PM']I would still think that both types required an interpreter. I know a lot of people who speak tongues do it on the fly whenever they want, its not a spontaneous thing. That's another thing which bothers me... it just doesn't seem to coincide with what I have read about true gifts from the Holy Spirit. I have a friend who graduated from FUS and she was praying with another student one night and he told her "I'm going to pray in tongues now" just because he wanted to do it. She later told me that it really scared her.

The girl in Mass for example (I agree with Deb's assessment on that one, and unfortunately this happens all too frequently at FUS), suppose she spoke in tongues at other prayer times as well. It could just as easily have been blasphemies those other times.

I probably have sounded rather negative towards the gifts of the Holy Spirit in this thread and thats not my intention. I do believe do they exist, but I am leery of what might not be true gifts. I think that before embracing these things too closely we should try our best to be sure of where they come from.[/quote]

You raise some valid points, and i would agree that we need to really look into such things before embracing them. Jude tells us to pray in the Holy Spirit. Romans tells us the Spirit will guide us when our minds are weak, and that the Lord (who searches hearts) knows the intention. In the end, we have to judge things by their fruits. This is where spiritual direction is much more relevant than any words you or i can post on PM.

Edited August 5, 2008 by fides quarens intellectum

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1617014' date='Aug 4 2008, 12:16 PM']To name just a few charisms: prophecy, teaching, administration, pastoring, helps, music, wisdom, knowledge, encouragement, craftsmanship, celibacy, evangelization, poverty... see the [url="http://www.siena.org/qanda.htm"]Catherine of Sienna Institute's Q&A[/url] section for more info - they help people discern their spiritual gifts.[/quote]


Okay, I went to the site and now I'm really interested, but I am not able to go on one of their teaching things. How would you suggest research otherwise?

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1617581' date='Aug 4 2008, 10:25 PM']Okay, I went to the site and now I'm really interested, but I am not able to go on one of their teaching things. How would you suggest research otherwise?[/quote]

You can still get the Spiritual Gifts inventory from the Institute, and they also have a workbook called "Discerning Charisms." The lists of charisms in both books are not exhaustive (who can number the workings of the Holy Spirit?), but here is a list of the more common ones they help people discern:

administration, celibacy, craftsmanship, discernment of spirits, encouragement, evangelism, faith, giving, healing, helps, hospitality, intercessory prayer, knowledge, leadership, mercy, missionary, music, pastoring, prophecy, service, teaching, voluntary poverty, wisdom, writing, public/prophetic tongues, and interpretation of tongues.

The really cool thing is that most people have 3-6 charisms working at one time...

Gotta run!

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1616071' date='Aug 2 2008, 05:04 PM']Sometimes I will just start praising God, "Thank you Jesus," "Praise you Jesus, etc, and after a few moments I feel the spirit leading me to pray in tounges. It is a very natural thing. I'm not possessed or anything, I can start and stop whenever I want. I'm not speaking another language or anything like that, I just feel that the HS is praying in a language more perfect than words.

Honestly, I don't understand it all myself. But I trust Him.[/quote]

oh i'm very familiar with that aspect. i'm active in the movement and pray-over and catch for people.

what i'm trying to do is more of a definitive analysis of the whole thing (if even possible), as if the Magisterium were to do an investigation into the whole thing and write documents and reports. the best i would be able to say at this point is that it is being more "animated" in prayer, as you listed in your second response. there are special gifts that are real and are present in people, but as to it's connection to "speaking" or "singing in tongues" that are not intelligible (babbling), i can't see a direct connection. it just happens to be present because people like it.

in other words, i can see a group of people singing praise and praying over others with some having the gift of prophesy, of images, of healing, etc., and not necessarily "singing in (incoherent) tongues". the gifts at Pentecost are real and are present today, but i just don't see a necessary connection with "singing in tongues".

[Deb]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1617275' date='Aug 4 2008, 05:34 PM']This is the real sticky wicket, I think.

You say that people who think one way of worship in the Church is the only way are rigid and not open to the Holy Spirit. (I agree.) Do you feel that the modern charismatic movement's interpretation/practice of the gifts is the only correct way?

[b]That is a really tough question and one that I wrestle with more than you could know. I feel that the movement is right in wanting to bring Life in the Spirit Seminars or Unleashing the Power of the Sacraments to all Catholics to that they can be guided in making the Holy Spirit more active in their life and to discerning the gifts they have that can be used for the buildup of Christ's Church. I believe that anyone can pray for the Holy Spirit to work continually in them. I believe however that if you are not open to Charisms or gifts, you will not find them no matter what. God does not force any of his gifts on anyone.
I belong to a Charismatic Catholic Church. I do go to other Churches because I try to go to Mass every day and my schedule does not always work with the Mass times at my Church. There are only two gifts that I know I have or it may just be different parts of one gift and that is the discernment of active spirits and the discernment of truth. The spirit in me comes alive very strongly when I am in the presence of the spirit active in others. Usually, always a good sense of spirit and on a couple of occasions a very bad sense of spirit. (terrifying in fact) When I am in my Church or in a convent Chapel or in the presence of many priests, the sense of the Holy Spirit is amazingly strong. I do not get that in many other Churches although, the holiness of the Priest can bring that on alone and it always comes upon me during the consecration of the Eucharist. Absolution is awesome even if the confession part of it isn't my favorite.
If magnified by many people with an active Spirit, it is intense. So, for me personally, I would use that as a guage as to how strong the Spirit is known and being utilized by a group of people. This happens to me outside of Church too and many times I do not know whom it is coming from. However, the Spirit is not active in anyone all the time so it isn't that great of a guage either.
Please realize that this is my own personal revelation and I do not expect anyone to believe this or take it in an unkind manner. Mass for me is so powerful, I never want it to end as is adoration. This is what God is calling me to.
Now, having said all that, I will honestly say that belonging to a Charismatic Church makes me crazy at times. I don't like any song where people clap their hands even if that song is before Mass starts or after it is dismissed. I don't like it. I won't do it and I wish they would stop it. I will not receive communion from anyone but the Priest unless I have no choice. I want us to go back to kneeling and receiving only by mouth. I love Latin Mass. I hate that no one seems to have any reverence for the sanctuary because the tabernacle is not in there. It should be in there. If one is before the altar of God, they should be reverent. I do not always see that in my Church, but then I don't always see that in many churches. I don't care if people raise their hands in prayer, I do somewhat but, I am not really paying any attention to anyone around me while Mass is going on so I am not sure what people are doing. I have no problem with people speaking in tongues at times that are appropriate. They aren't talking to me, so I don't care. I am used to it and it really isn't all that common. Most people I know who truly speak in tongues, do not start out that way, it switches while they are in deep prayer. They don't turn it on and off like a switch, God just wills it when he wants.
There are people who are caught up in the supernatural aspects who are not truly looking at gifts as something that is to be used outward and they worry to much about what they have or what someone else has. It isn't important.
For me, perfect Mass would be pre-Vatican Mass, in Latin or not does not matter to me, with a great emphasis on all people developing the gifts of the Holy Spirit to build up the Church.
I only stay at the Church I am at because God brought me there to learn from the priest and he has brought some incredible people into my life through this Church and as a new convert, this is the path the Lord has laid out for me to move closer to him.
[/b]

I think many Catholics do not "believe" in the gifts as interpreted/practiced by the charismatic movement. They nevertheless pray to the Holy Spirit, and ask Him for wisdom, knowledge, faith, spiritual/physical healing. They really believe in Him, and in His action in their lives.[/quote]

[b]I think you are right and that is the shame of it. Jesus Christ wants us to make use of the gifts that God wants to give us. We all get the same gifts at baptism and confirmation but, there is so much more. To me that is like buying a palace and living in the garage. [/b]

[b]I guess I really only want to see everyone know the fullness of the Holy Spirit and his gifts are a part of that. Just think if everyone could know their gifts and use them for the build up of the Church, what incredible unity we could create as a family of Catholics. [/b]

[Guest KevinSymonds]

I think the charismata are largely misunderstood.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Maggie']I believe people can be moved "by the spirit," all right, but sometimes it's not the Holy Spirit. I think a lot of people don't actually know what they're doing, they're just going with the flow, and this "field" for lack of a better word is really not the place for amateurs.[/quote]

Amen, amen and amen. I agree 100%.