Spiritual Gifts

[Deb]

First of all, people do not "roll" on the ground. They kind of just pass out and rest, motionless while the Holy Spirit does his work in them. The power of the Holy Spirit.

Second, you need to read more of the bible.


[b][i]Daniel 10:8-10
So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength. But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

or

[/i]<H3>[i]John 18:5-7 )[/i][/b]
[i]Whom do you seek?" [/i]

[i] They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.

[/i]



</H3>

[Maggyie]

I have in fact seen people "roll on the ground." However that was at a very strange Protestant church, not a Catholic one, and there was a whole lot more wrong with them than just that.

[Deb]

There ya go. We be Catholics here.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Deb' post='1624080' date='Aug 11 2008, 11:11 AM']There ya go. We be Catholics here.[/quote]

thanks for that one.

[zealousrap]

I haven't really read through this but I want to add a few random scattered tidbits here.
Different gifts are given to different people for different reasons. One can never compare what is given to another person to themselves. We are simply too diverse in our state in life, walk with God, gifts and needs, etc. I do not think that the gifts of the spirit are meant for average everyday life...the apostles were not using the gifts at the fishing boats and while collecting taxes...they had left all behind to live a radical life of following Christ and building up the Kingdom of God. It made sense that they were given those gifts for use at the appropriate time according to what Christ called them to do. We are given the gifts as well, for use at the appropriate time according to what God calls us to do. The Apostles were all Charismatic. Jesus promised He wouldn't leave them alone and He sent forth His Spirit. Living a Charismatic life means living a life in the Holy Spirit that Jesus left for us. It is the most traditional way of living. It doesn't mean you have to have all the Charismatic gifts like tongues, words, prophecy, etc. It just means you're open to the Holy Spirit, and are willing to be used by Him for the uplifting of the rest of the body (of the Catholic Church). Many people don't read what the Charismatic renewal really is; its about the Church encounter with the Holy Spirit as described in Sacred Scripture. And when did the Organ (which is a good thing) come into the Church? Later... So Charismatic tradition is older in the Church as compared to the organ, Gregorian chant, etc. Pentecost is key...it was the birthplace of the Catholic Church.
Its also been Approved by JP2 and Pope Paul VI, The USCCb etc...
So basically charismatic spirituality is a spirituality that simply calls us to be open to the Spirit and His gifts, as those in the upper room at Pentecost.
Papal preacher Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa said the Charismatic Renewal “is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external things can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized".
Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens said that “to interpret the Renewal as a ‘movement’ among other movements is to misunderstand its nature; it is a movement of the Spirit offered to the entire Church and destined to rejuvenate every face of the Church’s life".
Pope John Paul II himself in his first meeting with Catholic charismatics in 1979 said that he had “always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit … I am convinced that this movement is a sign of His action".

[zealousrap]

Also, one of the most obvious ways of discerning whether a person's spiritual gift is from the Lord is by the fruits that are present in their lives. If a person is truly living a life of virtue and holiness, it's more likely than if they were retreat junkies who got caught up in a crowd and then went back to a life with God in the background. We are called to use our gifts with humility and reverence, discerning at all times why we have them and when we should use them.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='zealousrap' post='1624702' date='Aug 11 2008, 07:50 PM']So basically charismatic spirituality is a spirituality that simply calls us to be open to the Spirit and His gifts, as those in the upper room at Pentecost.
Papal preacher Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa said the Charismatic Renewal “is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external things can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized".
Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens said that “to interpret the Renewal as a ‘movement’ among other movements is to misunderstand its nature; it is a movement of the Spirit offered to the entire Church and destined to rejuvenate every face of the Church’s life".
Pope John Paul II himself in his first meeting with Catholic charismatics in 1979 said that he had “always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit … I am convinced that this movement is a sign of His action".[/quote]

YES! You brought in Cantalamessa and Suenens!! You - you i like.

Where exactly are your Cantalamessa and Suenens quotes from? Thanks so much.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='zealousrap' post='1624726' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:05 PM']Also, one of the most obvious ways of discerning whether a person's spiritual gift is from the Lord is by the fruits that are present in their lives. If a person is truly living a life of virtue and holiness, it's more likely than if they were retreat junkies who got caught up in a crowd and then went back to a life with God in the background. We are called to use our gifts with humility and reverence, discerning at all times why we have them and when we should use them.[/quote]

Amen, amen. Well said. Like i've said a few times in here - this is why spiritual direction is so important.

[zealousrap]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1624782' date='Aug 11 2008, 09:41 PM']YES! You brought in Cantalamessa and Suenens!! You - you i like.

Where exactly are your Cantalamessa and Suenens quotes from? Thanks so much.[/quote]

perhaps these 2 links can bring this discussion and thread a lot of help

Cantalamessa
[url="http://www.ntucsacharismatic.org/articles.php?p=0&id=17"]http://www.ntucsacharismatic.org/articles.php?p=0&id=17[/url]

Suenens
[url="http://www.ccr.org.uk/crnature.htm"]http://www.ccr.org.uk/crnature.htm[/url]

[Maggyie]

[quote name='zealousrap' post='1624702' date='Aug 11 2008, 09:50 PM']Papal preacher Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa said the Charismatic Renewal “is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external things can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized".
Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens said that “to interpret the Renewal as a ‘movement’ among other movements is to misunderstand its nature; it is a movement of the Spirit offered to the entire Church and destined to rejuvenate every face of the Church’s life".[/quote]

But do you see, the above is one reason why some people are very "turned off" by the charismatic renewal. There is this feeling that there is an assumption that if you are not a part of the movement, you are a second-rate Catholic, do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, etc. etc. I am sure when Fr. Cantalamessa says it is "meant for all the baptized" he doesn't mean to imply that if you aren't a Charismatic you aren't living your baptism in full, but that is what it sounds like to outsiders. This actually came up in a Fan into Flame retreat I went on, we were reading a passage from Cantalamessa himself and several of the people in my group were very uncomfortable with his formulations. They were actually long-time members of the movement but they weren't happy with how he "put" things.

I also think Cardinal Suenens is wrong to say it can not be categorized as a movement. Like all movements the Charismatic Renewal has gone through periods of growth and periods of decline. Currently the movement is graying, for instance.

[Deb]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1624969' date='Aug 12 2008, 12:52 AM']But do you see, the above is one reason why some people are very "turned off" by the charismatic renewal. There is this feeling that there is an assumption that if you are not a part of the movement, you are a second-rate Catholic, do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, etc. etc. I am sure when Fr. Cantalamessa says it is "meant for all the baptized" he doesn't mean to imply that if you aren't a Charismatic you aren't living your baptism in full, but that is what it sounds like to outsiders. This actually came up in a Fan into Flame retreat I went on, we were reading a passage from Cantalamessa himself and several of the people in my group were very uncomfortable with his formulations. They were actually long-time members of the movement but they weren't happy with how he "put" things.

I also think Cardinal Suenens is wrong to say it can not be categorized as a movement. Like all movements the Charismatic Renewal has gone through periods of growth and periods of decline. Currently the movement is graying, for instance.[/quote]

He is not saying that one has to go to charismatic retreats or charistmatic churches. One has to be open to the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. God graces all with gifts. To return them unopened or to not see them because you don't want to believe in them or use them for God's glory does not make you a second class Catholic, just one who is not receiving the fullness of the faith that is there for them. We are all called to spread the word of the Lord and to build up God's kingdom on earth. That is required of us when we are confirmed. That is why we are given the gifts of the spirit, to be used outward for the Church. (see the catechism) If you are not doing this then no, you are not living out your baptism or your confirmation promises. You do not have to be doing anything in a "Charismatic" style, you just have to renew yourself in the Holy Spirit, ask for the grace to know your gifts and to use them.
You may think the movement is graying, the reality is so many people have embraced it and our living to the fullness of the faith. They don't have to do it in a flashy manner.

[zealousrap]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1624969' date='Aug 12 2008, 12:52 AM']But do you see, the above is one reason why some people are very "turned off" by the charismatic renewal. There is this feeling that there is an assumption that if you are not a part of the movement, you are a second-rate Catholic, do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, etc. etc. I am sure when Fr. Cantalamessa says it is "meant for all the baptized" he doesn't mean to imply that if you aren't a Charismatic you aren't living your baptism in full, but that is what it sounds like to outsiders. This actually came up in a Fan into Flame retreat I went on, we were reading a passage from Cantalamessa himself and several of the people in my group were very uncomfortable with his formulations. They were actually long-time members of the movement but they weren't happy with how he "put" things.

I also think Cardinal Suenens is wrong to say it can not be categorized as a movement. Like all movements the Charismatic Renewal has gone through periods of growth and periods of decline. Currently the movement is graying, for instance.[/quote]

I think you missed the point.

"Living a Charismatic life means living a life in the Holy Spirit that Jesus left for us. It is the most traditional way of living. It doesn't mean you have to have all the Charismatic gifts like tongues, words, prophecy, etc. It just means you're open to the Holy Spirit, and are willing to be used by Him for the uplifting of the rest of the body (of the Catholic Church)."

You don't need to have charismatic gifts to live a charismatic life abandoned to the Holy Spirit. What exactly do you classify as being "part of the movement"?
If you disagree with Cardinal Suenens, then whose school of thought do you base this off of?

this is from the second link I provided on Suenens:
"All of these diverse characteristics in expressions and in leadership are the experience in most countries, and they mark out the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as different from other ecclesial movements. This can be both a strength and a weakness, but it does draw attention to the fact that the Renewal is not man-made and humanly ordered."
The Charismatic Renewal is NOT one among many man made movements. The fact that it gone through periods of growth and decline are on us alone. The Holy Spirit hasn't changed. It's the same Holy Spirit that came at Pentacost, and that moved Peter to proclaim to Jesus who He was when no person on earth would have known by human knowledge. It's on us to call upon the Holy Spirit. Eph 5:8, Luke 11:9-15 we have to ask and seek Him out, and that is a call for all of the Church.

[Maggyie]

Oh no I agree with y'all, I am just pointing out that to people who are not members of the Renewal alot of the things Fr. Cantalamessa/others say come off as somewhat offensive, rather like a member of the traditionalist movement saying that Masses without Latin are inferior.

I think the Charismatic Renewal would be classified as a "movement" by any ordinary standard of examination. Within the Catholic Church it has a definable modern start date (the Duquesne Weekend) and it has national organizations dedicated to spreading the word and explaining the renewal to other people. To most people that would probably be called a movement, much like the Liturgical Movement or Cursillo etc.

It is absolutely true that everyone is called to be open to the Holy Spirit, but if you are trying to do that are you automatically a "member of the Renewal" even if you have no interest in prayer meetings or healing Masses and quite deliberately do not call yourself Charismatic? This is where the Cardinal and a lot of people part ways, I believe. I think a lot of people would resent being being "gerrymandered" into the group based on the criteria that if you are trying to live your baptismal vows you are participating in the Charismatic Renewal. They would view membership as something more concrete, like going to prayer meetings or conferences.

As to the Charismatic Renewal graying that is a fact that has been acknowledged by the Renewal leadership. That does not mean anything bad either. Movements grow only to the extent that God needs them to accomplish His will. Maybe 10 years from now the Renewal will look a lot younger because they will fill a greater need at that time, just as they did 30 years ago. There was an interesting article on this in The Christian Century, which I finally managed to find online,

[url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_5_123/ai_n26692927/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1"]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m105...ag=artBody;col1[/url]

although the title says "Charismatic and mainline" it does deal briefly with Catholic and non-mainline experiences with the renewal. The phrase it uses, "rise, fall, and diffusion" is I think an accurate description of what has happened in the Charismatic movement over the years.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1625403' date='Aug 12 2008, 01:54 PM']Oh no I agree with y'all, I am just pointing out that to people who are not members of the Renewal alot of the things Fr. Cantalamessa/others say come off as somewhat offensive, rather like a member of the traditionalist movement saying that Masses without Latin are inferior.

I think the Charismatic Renewal would be classified as a "movement" by any ordinary standard of examination. Within the Catholic Church it has a definable modern start date (the Duquesne Weekend) and it has national organizations dedicated to spreading the word and explaining the renewal to other people. To most people that would probably be called a movement, much like the Liturgical Movement or Cursillo etc.

It is absolutely true that everyone is called to be open to the Holy Spirit, but if you are trying to do that are you automatically a "member of the Renewal" even if you have no interest in prayer meetings or healing Masses and quite deliberately do not call yourself Charismatic? This is where the Cardinal and a lot of people part ways, I believe. I think a lot of people would resent being being "gerrymandered" into the group based on the criteria that if you are trying to live your baptismal vows you are participating in the Charismatic Renewal. They would view membership as something more concrete, like going to prayer meetings or conferences.

As to the Charismatic Renewal graying that is a fact that has been acknowledged by the Renewal leadership. That does not mean anything bad either. Movements grow only to the extent that God needs them to accomplish His will. Maybe 10 years from now the Renewal will look a lot younger because they will fill a greater need at that time, just as they did 30 years ago. There was an interesting article on this in The Christian Century, which I finally managed to find online,

[url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_5_123/ai_n26692927/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1"]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m105...ag=artBody;col1[/url]

although the title says "Charismatic and mainline" it does deal briefly with Catholic and non-mainline experiences with the renewal. The phrase it uses, "rise, fall, and diffusion" is I think an accurate description of what has happened in the Charismatic movement over the years.[/quote]

Okay - i read the article - thanks for sharing it. i think i can see some of teh frustrations you are trying to voice.

Personally, though, i respectfully disagree with you. i think i've already said i do not consider myself a "Charismatic Catholic," and i do not belong to the CCR. i do love Suenens and Cantalamessa, though, and do not at all feel "offended" by their words - they were calling us to embrace the inheritance we were given in our baptisms - i find that exciting! i've read much more Cantalamessa than Suenens (and have heard Cantalamessa in person), and have never felt he considered other Catholics inferior in any way, nor have i found him to be condescending. But, that's just me. Actually, i sense in him a deep respect for skeptics, which is understandable in light of the fact that he used to be one of them.

(Maggie - please know i am not directing the following venting to you - thanks.) i really wish people would stop lumping spiritual gifts/charisms with the "Charismatic movement," like it is some ominous entity or something. Plain and simple, charisms, or spiritual gifts, are for ALL the baptized - they are the means through which the Holy Spirit allows us to humbly work with Him in building up the Church. Again, see CCC #2003. thanks. /end rant.

[Deb]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1625761' date='Aug 12 2008, 10:24 PM']Okay - i read the article - thanks for sharing it. i think i can see some of teh frustrations you are trying to voice.

Personally, though, i respectfully disagree with you. i think i've already said i do not consider myself a "Charismatic Catholic," and i do not belong to the CCR. i do love Suenens and Cantalamessa, though, and do not at all feel "offended" by their words - they were calling us to embrace the inheritance we were given in our baptisms - i find that exciting! i've read much more Cantalamessa than Suenens (and have heard Cantalamessa in person), and have never felt he considered other Catholics inferior in any way, nor have i found him to be condescending. But, that's just me. Actually, i sense in him a deep respect for skeptics, which is understandable in light of the fact that he used to be one of them.

(Maggie - please know i am not directing the following venting to you - thanks.) i really wish people would stop lumping spiritual gifts/charisms with the "Charismatic movement," like it is some ominous entity or something. Plain and simple, charisms, or spiritual gifts, are for ALL the baptized - they are the means through which the Holy Spirit allows us to humbly work with Him in building up the Church. Again, see CCC #2003. thanks. /end rant.[/quote]

Great statement. That is what I was trying to get across. One does not have to belong to any movement or group or special thing to experience or receive or find their spiritual gift or charism. The gift or charism is to be used for the build up of the Church and that goes for all Catholic Churches, not just ones that are labeled Charismatic.