If Abortion Becomes Illegal

[HisChildForever]

I was checking out some anti-abortion vids on YouTube, and this one really made me think: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo...feature=related[/url]

In case you don't have the time to watch the entire thing, the interviewer was asking each individual protester, "If abortion were made illegal, and a woman got one anyway, what should be her punishment?" The people asked were very unsure of how to respond, and some simply said that they didn't know. So I pose the exact same question to you, my fellow Phatmassers. Should the woman...go to jail (a year or less), prison (a year or more), rehab, counseling, etc.? Surely there has to be a form of punishment, otherwise there would be no point in making abortion illegal - after all, just because something is illegal doesn't mean people won't do it, but if there is a punishment and a good chance that the person will be caught, well that's another deterrent.

In my opinion, it should be handled just like any other homocide case. Depending on the trial, the evidence, the state of the woman at the time of the abortion (even her state before and after), I feel that there could be many different punishments. One woman might have to spend a couple of months at a rehab facility for counseling - perhaps she's seventeen and her parents, boyfriend, etc. severely pressured her - and another woman might go to prison for a couple of years (she was fully willing and fully aware of her actions).

So...discuss.

[Vincent Vega]

It's murder.
I often wonder if the pro-choice group would be unmoved if someone went into a nursery and systematically dismembered a newborn with a knife. If they are disgusted/shaken/horrified, etc., then I can't understand why they're ok with it, so long as it's concealed by the womb. It should be punished, then, the same as if she'd deliver the baby and kill the child by any other means. So, whatever the sentence is for premeditated murder in the state in which it is committed.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]It should be punished, then, the same as if she'd deliver the baby and kill the child by any other means.[/quote]

That's excellent. I'm surprised no one in the video thought of that!

I should have added a similar question about the doctors, heck even nurses. I'm surprised that the interviewer in that video neglected them and their involvement.

[thicke]

It depends on the reasons for making it illegal. Right now, the most likely scenario where Roe vs. Wade gets made inert would be a constitutional amendment acknowledging the personhood of an unborn baby (something we all know to be true anyway), thereby giving them the rights and freedoms that are given to born persons. In that case, an abortion would be an act of murder legally. The doctor would be committing first degree murder. Not sure what the mother's role would be classified as. I would guess conspiracy to commit murder.

Other scenarios could mean something different.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1617545' date='Aug 4 2008, 08:57 PM']It's murder.
It should be punished, then, the same as if she'd deliver the baby and kill the child by any other means.[/quote]

I would agree.

[dairygirl4u2c]

there should be community service involved definitely. maybe a fine. the community service acts to deter women, who have money. the fine should be sever er if it ever happens again.
later term abortions should have higher penalties up to capital murder.

to compare murder regularly thought of and abortion early on, is silly, to treat them as if they are the same. reasonable people can disagree. i think reasonable people can think it's not silly... and think me wrong... but i simply disagree and think it silly. there's biological and philosophical arguments, that at least should make a person question whether it's a person. considering that, and considering that people beleive those arguments, we should have a little more respect for their positions... even if it means we are outlawing abortion, but having lighter punishments sometimes.

[MissScripture]

I think it would depend on the mother's involvement what the punishment should be --if she was forced or if she went willingly, etc. But that would be the sort of thing taken into account in any murder case, so yes, I think it should be treated as the murder it is, and decided in court.

[dairygirl4u2c]

people act like prochoice people argue it's not a person, or that it's debateable... to sooth their conscience. really, the truth is more like the opposite, to a large degree. prolife persons who says the case is closed on the issue, are simply choosing to sooth their conscience for wanting to put a women in jail for life etc, to avoid uncertainty, to have clear answers where there are none.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1617650' date='Aug 4 2008, 10:46 PM']people act like prochoice people argue it's not a person, or that it's debateable... to sooth their conscience. really, the truth is more like the opposite, to a large degree. prolife persons who says the case is closed on the issue, are simply choosing to sooth their conscience for wanting to put a women in jail for life etc, to avoid uncertainty, to have clear answers where there are none.[/quote]
I fail to see your point.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1617669' date='Aug 4 2008, 10:49 PM']I fail to see your point.[/quote]


i fail to see yours.
i'll debate you on the personhood stuff if you want,,, i have a whole ton of this stuff in past threads ready to be rehashed. just let me know.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1617711' date='Aug 4 2008, 11:02 PM']i fail to see yours.
i'll debate you on the personhood stuff if you want,,, i have a whole ton of this stuff in past threads ready to be rehashed. just let me know.[/quote]
My point was that I would appreciate clarification on the bit I quoted.

[dairygirl4u2c]

also... if you genuniely failed to see my point i'll be clearer.
people who think it's clearly murder are misguided or rationalizing their position. therefore, their conclusions that women who have an abortion with the morning after pill.... should be treated as run of the mill murderers,,, are not valid, because most abortion and run of the mill murder have too many dissimilarities to treat the same.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, i shouldn't be so general.
there are some i think who could genuinely think its murder. their position is respectable.
most, not all, people are misguided or rationalizing, who think it's murder though.

[dairygirl4u2c]

*who htink it should be treated like murder* the last sentence should say in the last post.
my edit button isn't working. technical problems.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1617718' date='Aug 4 2008, 11:05 PM']also... if you genuniely failed to see my point i'll be clearer.[/quote]
I truly did. I wasn't being facetious. [quote]people who think it's clearly murder are misguided or rationalizing their position. therefore, their conclusions that women who have an abortion with the morning after pill.... should be treated as run of the mill murderers,,, are not valid, because most abortion and run of the mill murder have too many dissimilarities to treat the same.[/quote]
How are they dissimilar? Aren't they both the premature ending of a human life?

[dairygirl4u2c]

who knows, whether it's premature ending of human persons. human life yes, human persons no. that's the main underlying premise.

since no one knows,,, and reasonable people can disagree (in my opinion) for some arbotion if that's the case,,, we should respect their position, cause their position has merit to it.
if it were irrefutably the case that it's a person... we wouldn't and shouldn't repsect their position.

i mean, i think a catholic could say... it's a human life,,, but still think the punishment be less.

to me there's always a question of what to do with the uncertainty. to me, we outlaw it, too much risk. i can see how the choice argument works though... and i acknowledge the uncertainty and their arguments points,,, so i say, let the punishment illustrate that uncertainty.

i mean... i guess i coudl see one, acnknowledging there's uncertainty, but still thinking we should punish jsut the same. i just don't see how. i think it's a fundamental difference of opinion after all arguments are made, as per people who acknowledge the uncertainy but insist we punish.

[geetarplayer]

It is wrong to deliberately kill an innocent person, especially brutally as in the case of abortion. Abortion should be punishable by jail time or community service as previously stated, depending on the case.

dairygirl, I am curious as to your qualifications for determining whether a living human is a person or not. Who are the human nonpersons, and when do they get to become persons?

[CatherineM]

I'm actually old enough to remember things from before Roe v. Wade. Women rarely got prosecuted. This was partially because the only time they became known to the authorities was when they had a bad result, and ended up in the hospital. The cops were more interested in catching the abortionists. Ones that were done in hospitals, weren't looked at at all. My mother was scheduled for one, in a catholic hospital with a catholic doctor, with me because they thought she'd die carrying me. When she felt me start kicking, she couldn't go through with it. I'm obviously still alive, and so is she, although missing a bunch of original parts.

I suspect that if they made abortions illegal again, that very little enforcement would go on. Cops wouldn't bother with it. Abortionists would set up in border areas in Canada and Mexico, and people would volunteer to escort girls across to get them.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1617744' date='Aug 4 2008, 11:19 PM']who knows, whether it's premature ending of human persons. human life yes, human persons no. that's the main underlying premise.

since no one knows,,, and reasonable people can disagree (in my opinion) for some arbotion if that's the case,,, we should respect their position, cause their position has merit to it.
if it were irrefutably the case that it's a person... we wouldn't and shouldn't repsect their position.

i mean, i think a catholic could say... it's a human life,,, but still think the punishment be less.

to me there's always a question of what to do with the uncertainty. to me, we outlaw it, too much risk. i can see how the choice argument works though... and i acknowledge the uncertainty and their arguments points,,, so i say, let the punishment illustrate that uncertainty.

i mean... i guess i coudl see one, acnknowledging there's uncertainty, but still thinking we should punish jsut the same. i just don't see how. i think it's a fundamental difference of opinion after all arguments are made, as per people who acknowledge the uncertainy but insist we punish.[/quote]
Well...look at it this way -
It's got to be a human person. Human people only beget human people. Humans never beget dogs or trees, etc. Humans are only begotten from human people. Humans are never spawned from dogs, et al. This in mind, it only follows that a foetus must be a human person, as humans neither beget, nor develop from not-humans. Look at a caterpillar. Yes, it's in a different form now then once it undergoes metamorphosis and becomes a butterfly, but it is still the same creature and species and so forth. The only difference is the look of it. Was that clear? It seemed a lot like verbal diarrhea. lol.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the main points as per personhood. i hope i'm not missing anything, cause there's a ton of stuff in my essays etc. i'll bump onea those threads.

you have a snowball. you have a block. a snow ball isn't a snowman, and a block isn't a transformer. a cell isn't necessarily a person. at what point doesn't it become one? who know? when is a snow man a snow man etc?
on the other hand... it could be that the cell is as you guys say... one and the same at all points, just differnt forms.
isn't it possible that it's just a cell, in the sense of a block?

take an egg. i don't think i killed a chicken when i eat an egg, or kill an acorn tree when i smash an acorn. (aside from the literal fact that i didn't kill a large chicken etc)
on the other hand... when, an analogy i heard not long ago... when i see a seed sprouting,, i tend to think it's a plant.
basically.. my inituion,, like most peoples,, doesn't count for much. common sense isn't too common, cause it's too volatile.
so looking at it purely logically... and htere's more philoshiopcal arguemsn etc... it's an open question. in my mind.