If Abortion Becomes Illegal

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1618273' date='Aug 5 2008, 01:43 PM']i could be wrong:
from catholic encyclo
a lot of peple here are wrong too apaprently.[/quote]

with that said though... the ocnsensus here and on the interenst is that it's undefined in the CC.
this could be something that's only sorta defined, ordinary magistrium or whathaveryou, like the idea that you can't or very rarely should do capital punishment.
an orthodox person might be able to dispute the idea tht there's a soul, much like a person for capital punishment might.
it all goes back to the papal statements that make the catho encyclopedia etc. and the level of definition.
the catechism is silent on it i think it looks like.

[mortify]

The point is making abortions illegal would cause too many problems... so status quo it is!

[XIX]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1618352' date='Aug 5 2008, 05:31 PM']the catechism is silent on it i think it looks like.[/quote]
[quote]CCC 1711: Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is [b]from his very conception[/b] ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in "seeking and loving what is true and good."[/quote]

Emphasis added.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='mortify' post='1618360' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:39 PM']The point is making abortions illegal would cause too many problems... so status quo it is![/quote]

Exactly what i was thinking - just a scare tactic.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='XIX' post='1618395' date='Aug 5 2008, 04:41 PM']Emphasis added.[/quote]

i stand corrected as per the catechism. i am still not the only one here, even amongst the good catholics, who had error.
andit still could be said... to be not binding. remember,,,, people dispute the death penalty stuff in the catechism. an orthodox person could dispute this issue too. that it's ensouled the whole time isn't historical.
the actual papal statements need looked at.

[HisChildForever]

Check this out: from the Catechism, 2273:

[quote]As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights.[/quote]

That's at the very end of section 2273; the section itself deals with our natural human rights.

[Didymus]

why do we think close mindedly?

why make abortion just illegal? I want to make it [i]unthinkable[/i].

If we're talkin about women who are going to be getting abortions after it's made illegal, then we're acting as if we already lost the battle. (The battle being eliminating abortion, not just making it illegal.)

Edited August 13, 2008 by Didymus

[Didymus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1618307' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:31 PM']Which is why there would be a trial, an investigation, etc.[/quote]

which are never perfectly just, which brings up another interesting point. What happens to the women who are coerced into the abortion? Should they receive capital punishment like the others who supposedly deserve it because they had their child aborted? Of course not. I shudder to think about the consequences from a failed judicial system or a corrupt jury. God help us.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1625828' date='Aug 12 2008, 11:12 PM']why do we think close mindedly?

why make abortion just illegal? I want to make it [i]unthinkable[/i].

If we're talkin about women who are going to be getting abortions after it's made illegal, then we're acting as if we already lost the battle. (The battle being eliminating abortion, not just making it illegal.)[/quote]


You are SO right. Some people just figure if we make it illegal, then the problem is solved.

[Didymus]

that's why I often question the intentions of a politician's pro-life stance. I sometimes wonder, "Does this individual want to actually keep babies from being killed, or does he only want his stance to look good on paper and in speeches?"

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1625828' date='Aug 12 2008, 10:12 PM']why do we think close mindedly?

why make abortion just illegal? I want to make it [i]unthinkable[/i].

If we're talkin about women who are going to be getting abortions after it's made illegal, then we're acting as if we already lost the battle. (The battle being eliminating abortion, not just making it illegal.)[/quote]
Is the Church thinking closed-mindedly when the Catechism speaks of "providing appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights"?

The fact is that justice demands that murder of a child be punished.

Abortion (or any of other evil act) will only become truly "unthinkable" or eliminated once original sin is eliminated. (Which is to say, it won't happen until the Second Coming).

Does talking about legal penalties for murder, theft or rape mean we have "lost the battle" against crime?
While everything reasonable should be done to discourage abortion, to think that it can be utterly eradicated without even a need for criminal punishment is extremely naive and utopian thinking. Even in the best of times, people have stolen, raped, and murdered - including by abortion.

To think that we can absolutely eliminate abortion or other crime, so that criminal penalty is not necessary, is naive and foolish.
To discuss penalties for crime is not defeatist, but realistic.

[quote name='Didymus' post='1625834' date='Aug 12 2008, 10:17 PM']which are never perfectly just, which brings up another interesting point. What happens to the women who are coerced into the abortion? Should they receive capital punishment like the others who supposedly deserve it because they had their child aborted? Of course not. I shudder to think about the consequences from a failed judicial system or a corrupt jury. God help us.[/quote]
These same problems exist with the prosecution of any crime. The solution is do all we can ensure just courts. If a woman is truly coerced into abortion against her will, she should not pay the penalty, but rather those who coerced her.
Horrible crimes should not be excused from prosecution just because there is the possibility of people being falsely condemned. That would entail total anarchy and chaos. (but given your Joker avatar, maybe that's just your cup of tea . . .)

[Didymus]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1626450' date='Aug 13 2008, 10:01 PM']Is the Church thinking closed-mindedly when the Catechism speaks of "providing appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights"?

The fact is that justice demands that murder of a child be punished.

Abortion (or any of other evil act) will only become truly "unthinkable" or eliminated once original sin is eliminated. (Which is to say, it won't happen until the Second Coming).

Does talking about legal penalties for murder, theft or rape mean we have "lost the battle" against crime?
While everything reasonable should be done to discourage abortion, to think that it can be utterly eradicated without even a need for criminal punishment is extremely naive and utopian thinking. Even in the best of times, people have stolen, raped, and murdered - including by abortion.

To think that we can absolutely eliminate abortion or other crime, so that criminal penalty is not necessary, is naive and foolish.
To discuss penalties for crime is not defeatist, but realistic.[/quote]

every time I spoke of it however, I included the word "just." e.g. we shouldn't [i]just[/i] make it illegal.

to discuss penalties for a crime as [b]the[/b] [b]solution[/b] for the injustice is not only unrealistic but also illogical and virtually impossible to bring about in today's culture with today's politics brought to you by today's media.

forgive me if I am wrong but this is often how I perceive some phatmasser's belief to be.. that abortion [i]restrictions[/i] are the most important battle in this 'war' over the dignity of life.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1626450' date='Aug 13 2008, 10:01 PM']That would entail total anarchy and chaos. (but given your Joker avatar, maybe that's just your cup of tea . . .)[/quote]

you flatter me.. but i am merely an agent of chaos

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1627100' date='Aug 14 2008, 03:54 PM']every time I spoke of it however, I included the word "just." e.g. we shouldn't [i]just[/i] make it illegal.

to discuss penalties for a crime as [b]the[/b] [b]solution[/b] for the injustice is not only unrealistic but also illogical and virtually impossible to bring about in today's culture with today's politics brought to you by today's media.

forgive me if I am wrong but this is often how I perceive some phatmasser's belief to be.. that abortion [i]restrictions[/i] are the most important battle in this 'war' over the dignity of life.[/quote]
It wasn't exactly clear what you were saying - you seemed to imply that it's wrong and defeatist to even discuss the penalties for abortion if it's made illegal, a statement I find absurd.[quote]If we're talkin about women who are going to be getting abortions after it's made illegal, then we're acting as if we already lost the battle.[/quote]
If anything is illegal, it will by definition need to have penalties attached; otherwise the law is useless.

And I'm not sure what "some phatmassers" you're talking about, but it's dangerous to go putting words in others' mouths. I don't recall anybody saying that laws and legal penalties are the the [i]only[/i] solution for the problem of abortion, nor that the legal aspects are the most important.
Obviously, the most [i]important[/i] thing in the war against abortion and the "culture of death" is to foster a "culture of life" - to spread the Gospel message and convert minds, hearts, and souls, to create a culture in which human life is valued as sacred, and not regarded as a disposable commodity, to help support strong marriages and families. Such things are not primarily the job of government, however, and will not primarily be accomplished by laws or government programs.

However, none of this is opposed to the legal goal of banning the crime of abortion, which indeed remains part of the battle. I'm getting tired of these needless false dichotomy accusations on here, where if one wants to fight legalized abortion, people act like this means he doesn't care about women or fostering a culture of life, etc. We need to do both.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1627579' date='Aug 14 2008, 09:40 PM']It wasn't exactly clear what you were saying - you seemed to imply that it's wrong and defeatist to even discuss the penalties for abortion if it's made illegal, a statement I find absurd.
If anything is illegal, it will by definition need to have penalties attached; otherwise the law is useless.

And I'm not sure what "some phatmassers" you're talking about, but it's dangerous to go putting words in others' mouths. I don't recall anybody saying that laws and legal penalties are the the [i]only[/i] solution for the problem of abortion, nor that the legal aspects are the most important.[/quote]

I personally don't perceive I am putting words into others' mouths. As it may not have been clear what I was saying a few posts ago, so may be the case with other phatmassers as well when they express their own opinions regarding the end to injustices such as abortion. At times it appears that a change in law is all pro-lifers fight for. If that is not the case, then I am mistaken.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1627579' date='Aug 14 2008, 09:40 PM']Obviously, the most [i]important[/i] thing in the war against abortion and the "culture of death" is to foster a "culture of life" - to spread the Gospel message and convert minds, hearts, and souls, to create a culture in which human life is valued as sacred, and not regarded as a disposable commodity, to help support strong marriages and families. Such things are not primarily the job of government, however, and will not primarily be accomplished by laws or government programs.

However, none of this is opposed to the legal goal of banning the crime of abortion, which indeed remains part of the battle. I'm getting tired of these needless false dichotomy accusations on here, where if one wants to fight legalized abortion, people act like this means he doesn't care about women or fostering a culture of life, etc. We need to do both.[/quote]

i agree.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1631893' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:41 PM']I personally don't perceive I am putting words into others' mouths. As it may not have been clear what I was saying a few posts ago, so may be the case with other phatmassers as well when they express their own opinions regarding the end to injustices such as abortion. At times it appears that a change in law is all pro-lifers fight for. If that is not the case, then I am mistaken.[/quote]
Well you were at least claiming to speak for the beliefs of others:
[quote]forgive me if I am wrong but this is often how I perceive some phatmasser's belief to be.. that abortion restrictions are the most important battle in this 'war' over the dignity of life.[/quote]
I have heard no one make this claim, nor have you been able to back it up - it's simply an unverified assertion about that prolifers on Phatmass believe. If you're going to criticize what you "perceive" others to believe, you should at least be able to back it up, rather than just assert your "perceptions."

Having known those active in the pro-life movement, I can tell you for a fact that a change in law is NOT [i][b]all[/b][/i] pro-lifers fight for. I've made this clear numerous times on this board in the past when the subject of abortion comes up. Many in the pro-life movement are active in running women's shelters, organizing drives to help women, various educational activities, etc.

Your assertions are something one hears frequently from pro-abortion propagandists, but a pro-lifer ought to know better.

[Lisieux Flower]

edit

Edited August 21, 2008 by Lisieux Flower

[Didymus]

Then I will most definitely point this attitude out to you next time it rears its head.

you yourself were doing the same thing you accuse me of when you assumed an implication in one of my previous posts. An implication that was not there.

[Didymus]

double post

(and Lis Flo's post was me as well.. my bad)

Edited August 21, 2008 by Didymus