That's It I"m Becoming Eastern Catholic

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1628599' date='Aug 15 2008, 11:05 PM']The Byzantine liturgy is a foretaste of heaven.[/quote]

iawtc.



(but I would miss Adoration)

[picchick]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1629495' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:22 AM']Latinization -- meaning the Eastern Rite abandoning its own traditions and replacing them with Western traditions -- is very dangerous for the Church as a whole. As John Paul II said, the Church breathes with 2 lungs -- the Eastern Church and the Western Church. The Eastern Church has a perspective and approach to the faith that would leave us incomplete historically, ecumenically and theologically if they were to abandone their tradition. And in fact, that danger has been very real in the last 100 years. No, Eastern Churches must control any overriding influences Western tradition may have on their Eastern tradition.

As far as us Westerners learning more of the East, I believe there is a lot of good there. I do not believe there is a real risk of Westerners abandoning their own tradition and replacing it with the East. Instead, I believe a modest approach to the Eastern tradition can strenghten a Western Catholic's faith and widen their perspective of how great God's work in the Church really is! I know my study of Eastern theology has made my Western understanding much more expansive and complete.[/quote]

Agreed. My interest in the East came about by studying Icons in highschool. It just attracted me. Then college took over things in my life and I couldn't study them as much. Then a friend got me back interested into the Eastern Rite. Now I am hooked. I love it! I think that both rites should learn about each other, not change each other but learn. I think the Church will be healthier that way, not to say that it is sick but that people's understanding of each other and of the Church would grow leaps and bounds.


A thing about Adoration:
One thing that I had to overcome in learning and trying to understand the different rites is that there is no great wall separating the two rites. If someone from the Eastern Rite wants to go to Adoration all he/she needs to do is find a parish with Adoration and then just go. However, Jesus is still in the "tabernacle" in the Eastern Rite. He is just not exposed as He is in the Latin.

Man, I love the Catholic Church!

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='picchick' post='1629623' date='Aug 17 2008, 08:07 PM']Agreed. My interest in the East came about by studying Icons in highschool. It just attracted me. Then college took over things in my life and I couldn't study them as much. Then a friend got me back interested into the Eastern Rite. Now I am hooked. I love it! I think that both rites should learn about each other, not change each other but learn. I think the Church will be healthier that way, not to say that it is sick but that people's understanding of each other and of the Church would grow leaps and bounds.


A thing about Adoration:
One thing that I had to overcome in learning and trying to understand the different rites is that there is no great wall separating the two rites. If someone from the Eastern Rite wants to go to Adoration all he/she needs to do is find a parish with Adoration and then just go. However, Jesus is still in the "tabernacle" in the Eastern Rite. He is just not exposed as He is in the Latin.

Man, I love the Catholic Church![/quote]



It's the same with different religious orders. They're not "incomplete" on their own, but together they're such a beautiful spectrum.

I wish we had more Eastern Catholics here... we only seem to have Orthodox.

Do the Eastern Catholic rites have Confirmation straight after Baptism too, or is that just the Orthodox?

[Apotheoun]

Eastern Christians do not expose the Eucharistic elements, because in our theological tradition there is no need to do so, since the presence of Christ permeates the whole Church temple, and proper veneration of the Eucharistic elements is given only through their consumption within the divine liturgy. Moreover, divine energy (i.e., uncreated grace) is present in all of the icons that are displayed throughout the Church building for veneration by the faithful, and which manifest the presence of God and His saints to the worshipper as a living memorial ([i]anamnesis[/i]).

Below is a quotation that I have posted before, but which I thought might be useful here:

[size=3][quote name='The Byzantine Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom' date=' pages 228-230'][. . .]

There is a fundamental difference between Byzantines and Westerners in the interpretation of sacred images. The latter merely regard them as representations of one whose presence is elsewhere, in heaven. For the Byzantine Christian, the icon is a veritable theophany, a dynamic manifestation of divine energy at work on earth. The person represented is in some spiritual way actually present in the icon. From this presence flow streams of grace upon the sinful world, purifying and sanctifying it.

How [does one] explain this mysterious presence in the icon? To define this presence would be as difficult as explaining the Shekinah or the mysterious presence of Christ amid two or three gathered together in His name (Matt. 18:20). Yet such a presence was no less true. The mystical teaching concerning icons stems from the master idea of all Eastern typology, the idea of the Church building as "Heaven on earth." Gregory of Nyssa was probably the first to set out the main lines of such teaching. His doctrine was taken up and developed by others. The author of the eighth-century 'Rerum Ecclesiasticarum Contemplatio', for example, expresses it boldly: "The heaven wherein the Triune God lives and moves on earth is the Christian holy place, the Church. . . ." The presence of heaven passed easily from the Church to the icon.

The West never understood the iconoclastic controversy. It did not see the veneration of icons as a dogmatic matter but simply as a disciplinary matter. The Byzantine East, on the other hand, saw clearly in the decision of the seventh general council a contribution toward a better understanding of the mystery of the Incarnation or, more precisely, the mystery of God's communication of Himself to the world and to man in particular. That is why iconography was always such a serious science. It was never merely an art form. To be worthy of the task, the ancient icon painters prayed and fasted for days before taking up their brush – only then could they communicate the Divine through their image-making. Because icons represent human forms that have been "regenerated into eternity," holy bodies of persons transformed, transfigured by grace in prayer, iconographers attempted to convey theological meanings through symbolical colors and forms. Saints, for example, are represented facing forward so that their entire face is showing, for a spiritual man cannot be incomplete, with one eye only. "A soul that has been illuminated by divine glory," teaches Macarius the Great, "becomes all light and all face. . . and has no part with that which is behind but stands altogether facing forward."

[. . .][/quote][/size]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1629761' date='Aug 17 2008, 01:02 PM']Do the Eastern Catholic rites have Confirmation straight after Baptism too, or is that just the Orthodox?[/quote]
Up until very recently the Ruthenian Church chrismated babies right after baptism, but delayed the reception of first communion until the age of reason. That said, about two years ago our bishops suppressed the Latin practice of delaying communion, and we began giving communion to babies once again.

[doe-jo]

I've been to a melkite rite mass.. very beautiful! however, i love the tridentine latin mass more...

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1629937' date='Aug 18 2008, 12:48 AM']Up until very recently the Ruthenian Church chrismated babies right after baptism, but delayed the reception of first communion until the age of reason. That said, about two years ago our bishops suppressed the Latin practice of delaying communion, and we began giving communion to babies once again.[/quote]

While I very much "live" the Latin practice, because I grew up in it and love it, the idea of a baby partaking in communion feels like... pure beauty. Where purity meets Purity. Wow.

[mortify]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1629495' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:22 AM']As far as us Westerners learning more of the East, I believe there is a lot of good there. I do not believe there is a real risk of Westerners abandoning their own tradition and replacing it with the East.[/quote]

We have already abandoned most of our traditions, we are more vulnerable than ever.

The East is too proud of its ways to ever completely abandon their traditions.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1629998' date='Aug 17 2008, 05:24 PM']We have already abandoned most of our traditions, we are more vulnerable than ever.

The East is too proud of its ways to ever completely abandon their traditions.[/quote]
The Eastern Catholic Churches abandoned many traditions; thus the need for de-Latinization.

For example: the Ruthenian Church I attended in West Virginia only restored its iconostasis at the end of the 1980s.

[mortify]

There's nothing wrong with Eastern churches adopting certain Latin customs after reunifying with Rome, nor is it wrong for Rome to enforce certain standards of uniformity.

What offends me is the attitude that anything Latin is bad and inferior. If only contemporary Eastern and Western Catholics would spend some time delving into the depths of the Roman Rite, they'd discover a precious pearl the Holy Spirit Himself fashioned through countless saints and faithful.

Even the East can be enriched by the theology, philosophy, music, art, culture, devotion, and liturgy of the Roman Rite.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='mortify' post='1630150' date='Aug 17 2008, 10:11 PM']There's nothing wrong with Eastern churches adopting certain Latin customs after reunifying with Rome, nor is it wrong for Rome to enforce certain standards of uniformity.

What offends me is the attitude that anything Latin is bad and inferior. If only contemporary Eastern and Western Catholics would spend some time delving into the depths of the Roman Rite, they'd discover a precious pearl the Holy Spirit Himself fashioned through countless saints and faithful.

Even the East can be enriched by the theology, philosophy, music, art, culture, devotion, and liturgy of the Roman Rite.[/quote]

I mean no offense here, but it has sounded (to me at least), that you're of the opinion that anything non-Latin is bad and inferior.

[mortify]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1630160' date='Aug 17 2008, 09:14 PM']I mean no offense here, but it has sounded (to me at least), that you're of the opinion that anything non-Latin is bad and inferior.[/quote]

No offense taken but that is not my opinion.

When they were in communion with the Pope the Holy Spirit worked in the East just as He did in the West, and the East developed it's own set of unique practices and customs which are beautiful and venerable. This does not mean I can't show a reverence and love towards my rite, nor does it mean my rite can't enrich others. Too often the Roman rite is looked down upon, especially by the Greeks and their Slavic counterparts, and this is to their own detriment.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1630150' date='Aug 17 2008, 08:11 PM']Even the East can be enriched by the theology, philosophy, music, art, culture, devotion, and liturgy of the Roman Rite.[/quote]
No offense, but if I wanted Latin things I would have stayed Latin.

[picchick]

[quote name='mortify' post='1629998' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:24 PM']We have already abandoned most of our traditions, we are more vulnerable than ever.

The East is too proud of its ways to ever completely abandon their traditions.[/quote]

Um...In my humble opinion I have seen the exact opposite. I have seen that people in the Latin rite are arrogant and proud. The attitude of the Eastern Catholics in my area is that they are a part of the Church. Not a better part but a part. However, to go along with your last statement, it is the Latin Rite goers who have the holier than thou attitude. Not all but a majority.


[quote name='mortify' post='1630189' date='Aug 17 2008, 10:48 PM']No offense taken but that is not my opinion.

When they were in communion with the Pope the Holy Spirit worked in the East just as He did in the West, and the East developed it's own set of unique practices and customs which are beautiful and venerable. This does not mean I can't show a reverence and love towards my rite, nor does it mean my rite can't enrich others. Too often the Roman rite is looked down upon, especially by the Greeks and their Slavic counterparts, and this is to their own detriment.[/quote]

The Eastern Catholic Church is in communion with the Pope. Eastern ORTHODOX is not.

I love every rite of the Church. I think that we NEED to learn about each other. It is necessary. Totally necessary.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='picchick' post='1630210' date='Aug 17 2008, 11:13 PM']Um...In my humble opinion I have seen the exact opposite. I have seen that people in the Latin rite are arrogant and proud. The attitude of the Eastern Catholics in my area is that they are a part of the Church. Not a better part but a part. However, to go along with your last statement, it is the Latin Rite goers who have the holier than thou attitude. Not all but a majority.

The Eastern Catholic Church is in communion with the Pope. Eastern ORTHODOX is not.

I love every rite of the Church. I think that we NEED to learn about each other. It is necessary. Totally necessary.[/quote]

Agreed.