That's It I"m Becoming Eastern Catholic

[peach_cube]

[quote name='mortify' post='1630263' date='Aug 18 2008, 01:08 AM']I'm referring to the Orthodox.

In particular the Filioque, Papal primacy of jurisdiction, the Immaculate Conception, etc.[/quote]

As I understand it in order for the Eastern churches to accept the Filioque they would have to completely change their understanding of the Trinity. I don't think that is even remotely possible.

The Immaculate Conception makes little sense in the framework of Eastern thought, since we are all conceived without the stain of original sin. This is because all sin is a personal choice, not the result of a fallen nature.

[abercius24]

But the real truth is found when you can see how both perspectives are teaching the same thing. That's why the East and West are so valuable -- they are legitimate testimonies of the Deposit of Faith that infallibly teach the SAME Truth. Neither can truly exist without the other. Either both are right, or one is heretical; and we can't truly be in union if one is heretical.

But I have found that the Truth that both testify to is MUCH deeper than any theologians had previously considered. And that is where the Great Adventure in studying the Faith really begins!

I think this challenge to understand the cohesion between East and West is something the West is ready to begin. I DO NOT believe the East is ready for it, though, given the overwhealming and eroding influence Western tradition is having on the East. The East must FIRST be able to secure its own tradition before it can hope to understand it in light of the West. And frankly, if the East abandons too much of their own tradition, we in the West won't have an Eastern counterpart to study and learn from. And that would be the loss of a great, God-given window into the mysteries of the Faith.

Edited August 19, 2008 by abercius24

[Norseman82]

[quote name='mortify' post='1630263' date='Aug 18 2008, 12:08 AM']I'm referring to the Orthodox.

In particular the Filioque, Papal primacy of jurisdiction, the Immaculate Conception, etc.[/quote]

I was at a Byzantine-rite Catholic Divine Liturgy yesterday, and the creed did not contain the Filioque, so that should not be as big a stumbling block for Catholic-Orthodox relations as one might expect.

[Winchester]

[img]http://cliffordcoonan.dreamhosters.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bjork_07.jpg[/img]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='picchick' post='1628379' date='Aug 15 2008, 08:21 PM']I go to an Eastern Mass. I don't think that I will switch jurisdictions but I still love going.[/quote]

Where do you go? No, I'm not stalking you, but it would have been funny if we were at the same parish yesterday! Plus, one of my friends has a goal to attend Mass or Divine Liturgy at every one of the rites that exists in the Catholic Church, and I think it has rubbed off on me!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1631035' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:00 PM']I was at a Byzantine-rite Catholic Divine Liturgy yesterday, and the creed did not contain the Filioque, so that should not be as big a stumbling block for Catholic-Orthodox relations as one might expect.[/quote]
Laudate_Dominum posted on this topic some months ago, and his response summarizes the Eastern Christian position quite nicely:

[size=3][quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1445315' date='Jan 13 2008, 01:43 PM']. . .

The problem with the [i]filioque[/i] doctrine as it is expressed in the Roman creed (as far as Orthodoxy is concerned) is that it implies that the Son is cause [[i]aitia[/i]] or co-cause of the [i]hypostasis[/i] of the Holy Spirit. Latin doctrine puts forth an interpretation of [i]procedere[/i] as [i]ekporeusis[/i] which effectively destroys the [i]monarchia[/i] of the Father and results in an understanding of [i]homoousios[/i] that is essentially Sabellian.

According to Orthodox theology the Holy Spirit can be said to proceed from the Father through/and the Son according to the term [i]proienai[/i] which refers to the (eternal and uncreated) energetic manifestation of the Spirit and/or the sending of the Spirit in the [i]oikonomia[/i].[/quote][/size]

[picchick]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1631060' date='Aug 18 2008, 08:10 PM']Where do you go? No, I'm not stalking you, but it would have been funny if we were at the same parish yesterday! Plus, one of my friends has a goal to attend Mass or Divine Liturgy at every one of the rites that exists in the Catholic Church, and I think it has rubbed off on me![/quote]


where did you go?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1631320' date='Aug 18 2008, 10:36 PM']Laudate_Dominum posted on this topic some months ago, and his response summarizes the Eastern Christian position quite nicely:

[size=3][/size][/quote]
Good Lord, and there are people that understand that??? :|
I can never be a theologian.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='picchick' post='1631349' date='Aug 19 2008, 12:32 AM']where did you go?[/quote]

Annunciation Byzantine in Homer Glen - Fr. Tom Loya's parish.

[picchick]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1631363' date='Aug 19 2008, 01:03 AM']Annunciation Byzantine in Homer Glen - Fr. Tom Loya's parish.[/quote]


Nope, I didn't go there. I went to a Byzantine near me.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1631363' date='Aug 19 2008, 01:03 AM']Annunciation Byzantine in Homer Glen - Fr. Tom Loya's parish.[/quote]

Fr. Loya just plain rocks.

By the way, did you run into the Northrups? They're pretty cool, too.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1627692' date='Aug 14 2008, 11:01 PM']Sometimes I wish I'd been inducted into the Eastern Church so that I could become a priest and still be married, as I feel a strong call to both positions.
But alas, I'd miss the Latin Rite too much, I think. I don't know, though...you know, I've never attended an Eastern rite mass![/quote]
3 things(cool 3, reminds me of the Holy Trinity)
The Latin Rite is coming back! We recently got the Latin Mass at our parish! I LOVE IT!Though i understand your frustration I am disappointed whenever i have to go to a English Mass cause i just like the Latin mass better.HH Pope Benedict XVI is really encouraging it!

I know a guy who wanted to be married and a priest so he came up with this plan to convert to Protestantism become a minister get married and then convert back and then become a priest! Though then his mom pointed out since he was a baptized Catholic-it would not work!

In St Louis we have a Catholic Married Priest Fr. Lockwood!
Long story short!
He was raised Atheist,converted to Lutheranism and then converted to Catholicism.
He is soo smart though he is totally against priest marrying because while he is an awesome priest, like the family has to sacrifice so much so that he can be a priest. And is that really fair for the family to do that???

I ll pray that when the time is right you figure out what you are called to do whatever it is!
Pax~

[mortify]

[quote name='peach_cube' post='1630435' date='Aug 18 2008, 11:04 AM']As I understand it in order for the Eastern churches to accept the Filioque they would have to completely change their understanding of the Trinity. I don't think that is even remotely possible.[/quote]

If this were true Eastern Catholicism could not exist.

The "Filioque" was foreign to most Greeks even though it was used by all Latin Fathers and some Eastern Fathers (St Cyril of Alexandria). The fear among the Greeks, as far as I understand, is that it distorts the monarchy of the Father by supposedly creating a double causation of the Spirit. This isn't what the Church teaches. The Spiration of the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son as one principle, that is, as one spiration. The Son shares in the Father's spiration only because the Son is from the Father and has received all things from Him (John 16:14-15), thus the Father remains the "font of Divinity" and His "monarchy" is preserved.

The spiration of the Spirit is eternal and obviously not visible, so Scripture indicates it's reality through external signs. In John's Gospel Jesus "breaths on the Apostles the Holy Spirit," and explicitly says, "Receive the Holy Spirit." This verse, among others, reveals that the Son shares in the procession of the Spirit. Based on certain philosophical developments after the schism the Greeks will claim only the "energies" of the Spirit proceed from the Son, not His essence. This type of thinking is foreign to the West which affirms the Absolute Simplicity of God.

[quote]The Immaculate Conception makes little sense in the framework of Eastern thought, since we are all conceived without the stain of original sin. This is because all sin is a personal choice, not the result of a fallen nature.[/quote]

The inherited "stain" of original sin is being born deprived of sanctifying grace and the preternatural gifts possessed by our first parents. It is this absence of something necessary for our eternal end that constitutes the "guilt" or "stain" of original sin. This is why we are all condemned (Romans 5:18) and in need of Redemption. If certain Easterners reject this concept then the West can enrich them with this development as well.

[mortify]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1631035' date='Aug 18 2008, 08:00 PM']I was at a Byzantine-rite Catholic Divine Liturgy yesterday, and the creed did not contain the Filioque, so that should not be as big a stumbling block for Catholic-Orthodox relations as one might expect.[/quote]

I personally don't understand it's removal. We should all be reciting the same Creed as it reflects our oneness in Faith.

[mortify]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1631031' date='Aug 18 2008, 07:57 PM']But the real truth is found when you can see how both perspectives are teaching the same thing. That's why the East and West are so valuable -- they are legitimate testimonies of the Deposit of Faith that infallibly teach the SAME Truth. Neither can truly exist without the other. Either both are right, or one is heretical; and we can't truly be in union if one is heretical.[/quote]

The Holy Spirit worked throughout Christendom until the various schisms. It does not necessarily mean He totally abandoned the schismatics, but certainly any development of theres after the fact needs to be re examined.

[quote]The East must FIRST be able to secure its own tradition before it can hope to understand it in light of the West. And frankly, if the East abandons too much of their own tradition, we in the West won't have an Eastern counterpart to study and learn from. And that would be the loss of a great, God-given window into the mysteries of the Faith.[/quote]

I just don't understand why people can't see it's the Roman rite that's threatened by a complete loss of its traditions and not the East.

We are in far more need of securing our rite than the East is.