Pray For Jpii In Purgatory

[KnightofChrist]

[quote]KOC, no one said anything about defacto. The miracle that the Church requires has occurred and has been approved. Why are we talking about this???[/quote]

If we believe he is already in heaven, that is a defacto Saint. A person in heaven is a Saint.

We are talking about this because many seem to assume he is in heaven already when the Church has not said so, we should assume that since the Church has not yet declared him a saint that he is in purgatory and greatly needs our prayers for his soul there. But if we believe he is already a Saint or in heaven, when he is not, he does not get the prayers he needs in purgatory.

Edited August 17, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[MissScripture]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1630020' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:40 PM']Plenty of good people go to purgatory, in fact all people in purgatory are good, if they where evil or bad wouldnt they go to hell? The thought that JPII is a defacto Saint, or already in heaven has no rock to stand on, and the chances are very great that he is indeed in purgatory. And needs our prayers to lessen his pain and 'time' there.

The type of prayer for JPII makes a difference. If one prays for JPII's intercession they ask for his help. But if we pray for his soul in purgatory we are asking God to lessen his pain and 'time' in purgatory. The two are very different with very different intentions.[/quote]
This kind of goes back to your question about us doing JPII a disservice by assuming he's in Heaven. Correct me if I'm wrong, because this is what I was taught, but I'm not sure where, so it could be erroneous.

People in Purgatory can pray for others, and in fact, that is all they can do, and that is how they "work off" their time in purgatory.

So, based on that, it would seem that either way, praying FOR him, or asking him to pray for us would help with his time in Purgatory.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1630032' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:47 PM']If we believe he is already in heaven, that is a defacto Saint. A person in heaven is a Saint.

We are talking about this because many seem to assume he is in heaven already when the Church has not said so, we should assume that since the Church has not yet declared him a saint that he is in purgatory and greatly needs our prayers for his soul there. But if we believe he is already a Saint or in heaven, when he is not, he does not get the prayers he needs in purgatory.[/quote]


Okay, thanks for the clarification on "de facto". As for the rest, if the Church accepts the miracles as proof the saint-to-be is in heaven, then the Church is recognizing that they are in heaven and worthy of continuing their cause. Remember, canonization is not about proving the sainted is in heaven. It's about proving that the sainted lived the life of Christian virtue to an heroic degree. There are loads of saints in heaven who are unknown and not canonized.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1630045' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:55 PM']This kind of goes back to your question about us doing JPII a disservice by assuming he's in Heaven. Correct me if I'm wrong, because this is what I was taught, but I'm not sure where, so it could be erroneous.

People in Purgatory can pray for others, and in fact, that is all they can do, and that is how they "work off" their time in purgatory.

So, based on that, it would seem that either way, praying FOR him, or asking him to pray for us would help with his time in Purgatory.[/quote]


Based on what I know of Church teaching on purgatory, you are not wrong. But there is simply no reason to believe JPII is not in heaven. The Church has accepted the first miracle. That's the first step along the journey of canonization. Canonization is not about declaring someone to be in heaven. It's about declaring that this person (who is in heaven) lived the life of Christian virtue to an heroic degree. The "proof" of this heroic degree is in the miracle. The miracle is the proof that the sainted has been rewarded for their life of heroic Christian virtue by making it to heaven.

Do ya'll see? I think there is a breakdown somewhere b/c some people seem to mistakenly think canonization is about declaring the sainted to be in heaven. And it's not.

[add]

If the pope wasn’t good enough to gat a pass from purgatory, were does that leave anyone of us?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='apparently' post='1630180' date='Aug 17 2008, 10:34 PM']If the pope wasn’t good enough to gat a pass from purgatory, were does that leave anyone of us?[/quote]

Probably purgatory.

[qfnol31]

It can't hurt to pray for his repose.

In fact, as Pope, he was accountable for more than we will probably ever be. He may need the prayers more than many of us ever will.

It has been said that it is more difficult for Popes to enter Heaven than your average believer.

Also, Padre Pio said that prayers after they enter Heaven still count. (i.e. our prayers now may be why they are already in Heaven)

Edited August 18, 2008 by qfnol31

[KnightofChrist]

The miracle attributed to John Paul II, has the Church officially declared that the miracle was from him? Or is it only a would be miracle, that is still under review by the Church? My understanding is that this apparent miracle only opens the possibility of his being found blessed and for a miracle to be officially attributed to a soul they have to be found blessed first.

[Nihil Obstat]

Maybe us praying for his soul now means that after he died he'll never have to go to Purgatory.
See, God's tricky like that.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1630024' date='Aug 17 2008, 05:42 PM']KOC, no one said anything about defacto. The miracle that the Church requires has occurred and has been approved. Why are we talking about this???[/quote]

The process of canonization and proof of being in heaven is much more complex than just having a miracle attributed to the person in question.

John Paul II's own apostolic constitution Divinus Perfectionis Magister of 25 January 1983 and the norms issued by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints on 7 February 1983 for its implementation on diocesan level continued the work of simplification already initiated by Pope Paul VI.

"Servant of God" The process leading towards canonization begins at the diocesan level. A bishop with jurisdiction - usually the bishop of the place where the candidate died and/or is buried, although another ordinary can be given this authority - gives permission to open an investigation into the virtues of the individual, responding to a petition by members of the faithful, either actually or pro forma. This investigation may open no sooner than five years after the death of the person being investigated. However, the pope has the authority to waive this five year waiting period, as was done for Mother Teresa by Pope John Paul II and for John Paul II himself by his immediate successor, Benedict XVI. Normally, a guild or organization to promote the cause of the candidate's sainthood is created, an exhaustive search of the candidate's writings, speeches and sermons is undertaken, a detailed biography is written and eyewitness accounts are gathered. When sufficient information has been gathered, the investigation of the candidate, who is called "Servant of God", is presented by the local bishop to the Roman Curia—the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints—where it is assigned a postulator, whose task is to gather further information about the life of the Servant of God. Religious orders who regularly deal with the congregation often have their own designated postulator generals.

"Declaration 'Non Cultus'" At some point, permission is then granted for the body of the Servant of God to be exhumed and examined, a certification ("non cultus") that no superstitious or heretical worship or improper cult has grown up around the servant or his or her tomb is made, and relics are taken.

"Venerable/Heroic in Virtue" When enough information has been gathered, the congregation will recommend to the pope that he make a proclamation of the Servant of God's heroic virtue (that is, that the servant exhibited the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity, and the cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance, to an heroic degree). From this point the one said to be "heroic in virtue" is referred to by the title "Venerable". A Venerable has as of yet no feast day, no churches may be built in his or her honor, and the church has made no statement on the person's probable or certain presence in heaven, but prayer cards and other materials may be printed to encourage the faithful to pray for a miracle wrought by his or her intercession as a sign of God's will that the person be canonized.

"Blessed" Beatification is a statement by the church that it is "worthy of belief" that the person is in heaven, having come to salvation. This step depends on whether the Venerable is a martyr or a "confessor".

For a martyr, the pope has only to make a declaration of martyrdom, a certification that the venerable gave his or her life voluntarily as a witness for the faith and/or in an act of heroic charity for others. This allows beatification, giving the venerable the new title "Blessed" (abbreviated "Bl.") or, in Latin, Beatus or Beata. A feast day will be designated, but its observance is normally restricted to the Blessed's home diocese, to certain locations associated with him or her, and/or to the churches or houses of the blessed's religious order, if they belonged to one. Parishes may not normally be named in honor of a Blessed.

If the Venerable was not a martyr - all non-martyrs are "confessors" as they "confessed" or bore witness to their faith by how they lived their lives - it must be proven that a miracle has taken place by his or her intercession - that is, that God has shown a sign that the person is enjoying the Beatific Vision by God performing a miracle in response to the Blessed's prayers. Prayers "to" saints and blesseds always boil down to a single concept, "So-and-So, pray to God for me." Today, these miracles are almost always miraculous cures, as these are the easiest to establish based on the Catholic Church's requirements for a "miracle." (The patient was sick, there was no known cure for the ailment, prayers were directed to the Venerable, the patient was cured, the cure was spontaneous, instantaneous, complete and lasting, and doctors cannot find any natural explanation.)

"Saint" (abbreviated "St." and "St") To be canonized a saint, one (more) miracle is necessary. Canonization is a statement by the church that the person certainly enjoys the Beatific Vision. The saint is assigned a feast day which may be celebrated anywhere within the Catholic Church, although it may or may not appear on the general calendar or local calendars as an obligatory feast, parish churches may be built in his or her honor, and the faithful may freely and without restriction celebrate and honor the saint.

In the case of persons that common usage has called saints from "time immemorial" (in practice, since before 1500 or so), the Church may carry out a "confirmation of cultus", which is much simpler. For example, Saint Hermann Joseph had his veneration confirmed by Pope John Paul II.

In the case of the Eastern Catholic Churches, individual churches sui juris retain, in theory, the right to glorify (see next section on Eastern Orthodox practice) saints for their own jurisdictions, though this has rarely happened in practice.

Although a recognition of sainthood by the pope does not directly concern a fact of divine revelation, it must still be "definitively held" by the faithful as infallible under (at the very least) the Universal Magisterium of the Church since it is a truth connected to revelation by historical necessity.

I would have you refer to [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_25011983_divinus-perfectionis-magister_en.html"]Divinus Perfectionis Magister[/url] and [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM"]the CDF Doctrinal Commentary[/url] which speak directly to this issue.

Thanks for your time. And we should continue to pray for his soul.

[add]

[font="Garamond"][size=4]What if Saddam Hussein and [url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Pl-Karol_J%C3%B3zef_Wojty%C5%82a.ogg"]Karol Wojtyła[/url] (Pope John-Paul 2) went before Saint Peter at the peril gates, at the same time? [/size][/font]

[font="Garamond"][size=4]Who would go through first? As Purgatory is not for everybody, thou all are saved. [/size][/font]

[KnightofChrist]

I'm not sure I understand, all that go to purgatory will enter heaven. But all, that is all people are not saved. Some people, in fact a great many will be punished in the fires of hell forever.

Saddam, likely went to hell.

Edited August 18, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1630927' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:55 PM']I'm not sure I understand, all that go to purgatory will enter heaven. But all, that is all people are not saved. Some people, in fact a great many will be punished in the fires of hell forever.

Saddam, likely went to hell.[/quote]


Honestly, I don't know who goes to hell. My mind tells me surely Hitler is in hell and surely the killers and rapists of children are in hell. But the truth is, I feel in awe at the thought of the mercy of God. Only God knows and sees every soul to it's very deepest depth. He's the only one who can see and understand everything and from him nothing is hidden. Therefore, his justice and his mercy are perfect. So I really can't rely on what my mind TELLS me makes sense in this issue. I will only say that ***if*** I go to Heaven (or Purgatory) and I see Hitler there, I won't be shocked. Actually, if I am truly a Christian and a good Christian, I would rejoice at any sinner being saved no matter how much **I** believed they should be in hell. It's a tricky thing and brings up a lot of conflict for me. Because I am a naturally very vengeful type of person. I don't generally act on it but the inclination is there. But when it comes to the issue of hell, I feel the need to back away and be completely humble about that.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1630984' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:26 PM']Honestly, I don't know who goes to hell. My mind tells me surely Hitler is in hell and surely the killers and rapists of children are in hell. But the truth is, I feel in awe at the thought of the mercy of God. Only God knows and sees every soul to it's very deepest depth. He's the only one who can see and understand everything and from him nothing is hidden. Therefore, his justice and his mercy are perfect. So I really can't rely on what my mind TELLS me makes sense in this issue. I will only say that ***if*** I go to Heaven (or Purgatory) and I see Hitler there, I won't be shocked. Actually, if I am truly a Christian and a good Christian, I would rejoice at any sinner being saved no matter how much **I** believed they should be in hell. It's a tricky thing and brings up a lot of conflict for me. Because I am a naturally very vengeful type of person. I don't generally act on it but the inclination is there. But when it comes to the issue of hell, I feel the need to back away and be completely humble about that.[/quote]
I remember in a homily once, on All Saints Day, the priest told us it was important to note that while the Church has a list of all the people who are SURELY in Heaven (the Saints, of course), they do not have a list of who is in Hell, because even the Church will not say that someone is in Hell.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1630995' date='Aug 18 2008, 07:32 PM']I remember in a homily once, on All Saints Day, the priest told us it was important to note that while the Church has a list of all the people who are SURELY in Heaven (the Saints, of course), they do not have a list of who is in Hell, because even the Church will not say that someone is in Hell.[/quote]

Exactly. And I think also--well, I've given it a lot of thought and meditation here and there over the years; I feel my thoughts on the subject are constantly evolving--that if we TRULY believe that Jesus came "that all may be saved" then we have to KNOW that Heaven is doing everything in its power for every single sinner. That means the intercession of all the saints, the protection and guidance of all the Angels, the power of all of the prayers of the Church militant/suffering/triumphant, everything. All of Heaven is putting its resources at work solely so that all sinners might be saved. WHO KNOWS what took place in the soul of Hitler at the moment he was breathing his last breath??? I read once some kind of personal revelation from a mystic, something about how the Blessed Mother had said that even at the very last breath if a sinner will even call out "Jesus!" they can saved and merit Purgatory no matter how horrible his sins. I read also how many sinners are saved even with one Hail Mary.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1630984' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:26 PM']Honestly, I don't know who goes to hell. My mind tells me surely Hitler is in hell and surely the killers and rapists of children are in hell. But the truth is, I feel in awe at the thought of the mercy of God. Only God knows and sees every soul to it's very deepest depth. He's the only one who can see and understand everything and from him nothing is hidden. Therefore, his justice and his mercy are perfect. So I really can't rely on what my mind TELLS me makes sense in this issue. I will only say that ***if*** I go to Heaven (or Purgatory) and I see Hitler there, I won't be shocked. Actually, if I am truly a Christian and a good Christian, I would rejoice at any sinner being saved no matter how much **I** believed they should be in hell. It's a tricky thing and brings up a lot of conflict for me. Because I am a naturally very vengeful type of person. I don't generally act on it but the inclination is there. But when it comes to the issue of hell, I feel the need to back away and be completely humble about that.[/quote]

I know I agree, it is just likely, yet we don't know for sure we are not the God alone is Judge.

[Winchester]

[img]http://cliffordcoonan.dreamhosters.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bjork_07.jpg[/img]

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1631045' date='Aug 18 2008, 08:03 PM'][img]http://cliffordcoonan.dreamhosters.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bjork_07.jpg[/img][/quote]

But she's cute. I couldn't live with myself if she was in Hell!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1631065' date='Aug 18 2008, 08:13 PM']But she's cute. I couldn't live with myself if she was in Hell!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]


I agree. No way could Bjork go to hell. This is the woman who wore a chicken to an awards show!! She is AWESOMENESS. This is the woman who beat down a reporter in the airport in full view of everyone because the reporter had been harassing her for days. This is the woman who sang one of my favorite songs ever, All is Full of Love. She can't go to hell!!!!!!!

[Winchester]

Didn't say she was.