Protestant Doctrine Of Infallibility

[thessalonian]

Recently I have become aware that protestants who believe in OSAS have a doctrine of infallilbility. They say that they can know that they are saved and will go to heaven when they die. Oddly enough I have heard some of them say that some who believe they have an infallible certainty of this will not go to heaven because they have decieved themselves and are not bearing fruit.

Comments?

[dominicansoul]

protestantism: it's all mush to me.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1630890' date='Aug 18 2008, 05:37 PM']Recently I have become aware that protestants who believe in OSAS have a doctrine of infallilbility. They say that they can know that they are saved and will go to heaven when they die. Oddly enough I have heard some of them say that some who believe they have an infallible certainty of this will not go to heaven because they have decieved themselves and are not bearing fruit.

Comments?[/quote]

First, how does one become saved in the first place. People can lie to themselves, because they will go, because I have done this (like accept Jesus in my heart), that and the other thing, they believe they are saved. This of course, cheapens God's gift of Grace, because a person who says, I have done this, that, and the other thing are the same as the Pharisee's who go to the temple and say, I fast, and I pray, and I'm not like those other people. Think of what that person is saying. What they do is more important than what God does.

If you, however, put your trust in God and say, I will do my part, God you do your part, because I know I can't do anything to make myself saved, only you can save me, then you will be saved, and will continually be saved, because you're not entering into pride.

Remember, God resists the proud, but gives salvation to the humble. Saying that there is nothing you can do, but you should do anyways because its reasonable to do so, to be saved because it is all God's work in your life, then God will always keep you in your hand. Then you don't worry if you're saved or not, because that is up to God, and no matter what he chooses, its okay with you because you are human and he is God!

My personal belief is, wherever God decides I go after I die is great, because he is just and I am a sinner. I deserve Hell, so if he decides I should go to Hell, I get what I deserve. If he decides I go to heaven, then I will be before my lord worshiping him at his feet forever!

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1630896' date='Aug 18 2008, 05:42 PM']protestantism: it's all mush to me.[/quote]

How loving.

[thessalonian]

MYT,

So you aren't infallibly certain your going to heaven? Are you Catholic?

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1630919' date='Aug 18 2008, 05:51 PM']How loving.[/quote]

I was being honest. I've tried to understand. But I don't see any sort of pattern or any logic or any real reasoning behind most of the protestant's beliefs that keep us seperated.

And you don't know how loving I really am to them. Even my protestant friends wouldn't have been offended by that comment. I tell them that all the time! They tell me worse about my faith! None of us ever get too hot-headed about it...

so chill...

[Winchester]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1630919' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:51 PM']How loving.[/quote]
The irony could light New York city for a week.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1630973' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:19 PM']MYT,

So you aren't infallibly certain your going to heaven? Are you Catholic?[/quote]

No, I am not Catholic. I just don't get hung up on me entering Heaven, because that is God's job to decide. I just have to live with his decision in the end. I put my 100 per cent trust he will do as he sees fit.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1630987' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:28 PM']I was being honest. I've tried to understand. But I don't see any sort of pattern or any logic or any real reasoning behind most of the protestant's beliefs that keep us seperated.

And you don't know how loving I really am to them. Even my protestant friends wouldn't have been offended by that comment. I tell them that all the time! They tell me worse about my faith! None of us ever get too hot-headed about it...

so chill...[/quote]

Okay. You chill too.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1630994' date='Aug 18 2008, 07:31 PM']No, I am not Catholic. I just don't get hung up on me entering Heaven, because that is God's job to decide. I just have to live with his decision in the end. I put my 100 per cent trust he will do as he sees fit.[/quote]

So then your not one of the OSAS Christians I am talking about. Thanks for your input.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1631014' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:45 PM']So then your not one of the OSAS Christians I am talking about. Thanks for your input.[/quote]

NP.

I wanted to respond, because most Catholics will say foolish things like Protestism is mush, and you're not looking for that. You're looking for someone who wants to discuss things.

I would say it should be OTAT, once trust always trust, but not once saved always saved.

[Selah]

[quote]Recently I have become aware that protestants who believe in OSAS have a doctrine of infallilbility. They say that they can know that they are saved and will go to heaven when they die. Oddly enough I have heard some of them say that some who believe they have an infallible certainty of this will not go to heaven because they have decieved themselves and are not bearing fruit.

Comments?[/quote]

Interestingly enough, my father posted something concerning this on his blog. Here's some of it:

The ‘doctrine’ of ‘once saved, always saved’ (OSAS), otherwise known as ‘eternal security’ was a teaching I found hard to abandon when I crossed the Tiber. It is an enticing philosophy that attracts people into a web that is hard to get out of. Behind the doctrine, of course is the teaching that you and I can ‘know for sure’ that our destiny is Heaven. Or as fundamentalist preachers love to put it: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ ...

But this doctrine has a dark side. If I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven (those who repeated a sinners prayer), than I can also be sure who is going to Hell (those who have not). This ‘knowledge’ of who is destined for Hell not only plays into the ‘Lie’ (using Malcolm’s language), it also plays into a destructive psychological pattern.
A former Pentecostal pastor once recounted a strange service he attended once. The preacher was giving a sermon on Hell and began to name those he was ‘sure’ are either in Hell, or headed there. “They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell!” the crowd began to chant over and over in a bizarre fashion.
There is a strange and sick satisfaction people have in ‘knowing’ their enemies are ‘burning in Hell’. It gives them a feeling of ‘justice’.
When some of the writings of Mother Teresa was made public, it revealed she had gone through (as St. John of the Cross did) a ‘dark night of the soul’.

Fundamentalists had a gleeful feeding frenzy. I remember one fundamentalist almost giddy with excitement: “See! This proves it! Mother Teresa is in Hell!!”. It is extremely important to fundamentalists that Mother Teresa be in Hell. If Mother Teresa is not burning in Hell, that would make their belief/doctrine false; hence she must be burning in Hell.
For extreme Calvinists, this gets into their theology that a portion of humankind is ‘predestined to Hell’. A recent survey found 60% of born-again Christians say people were going to hell because they didn't have the "right beliefs." Whose beliefs are right is dependent upon the person you are talking to. Catholics are told (many times with glee) that it is ‘certain’ they are going to Hell.

It reflects a lack of compassion, hope, and love. It feeds into a person’s unforgiveness and bitterness toward another. In dehumanizing them with the curse of “They’re going to Hell,” it relieves them of any responsibility.

The Pharisees of Jesus day had a saying (from ancient Jewish writings): "There is joy in Heaven when a sinner drops into Hell." Jesus turned that around and said: "There is joy in heaven when a sinner repents."
The Pharisees believed in a kind of ‘OSAS’. Obviously Jesus did not.

[url="http://thetrailhome.blogspot.com/"]http://thetrailhome.blogspot.com/[/url]

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Selah' post='1631022' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:49 PM']Interestingly enough, my father posted something concerning this on his blog. Here's some of it:

The ‘doctrine’ of ‘once saved, always saved’ (OSAS), otherwise known as ‘eternal security’ was a teaching I found hard to abandon when I crossed the Tiber. It is an enticing philosophy that attracts people into a web that is hard to get out of. Behind the doctrine, of course is the teaching that you and I can ‘know for sure’ that our destiny is Heaven. Or as fundamentalist preachers love to put it: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ ...

But this doctrine has a dark side. If I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven (those who repeated a sinners prayer), than I can also be sure who is going to Hell (those who have not). This ‘knowledge’ of who is destined for Hell not only plays into the ‘Lie’ (using Malcolm’s language), it also plays into a destructive psychological pattern.
A former Pentecostal pastor once recounted a strange service he attended once. The preacher was giving a sermon on Hell and began to name those he was ‘sure’ are either in Hell, or headed there. “They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell!” the crowd began to chant over and over in a bizarre fashion.
There is a strange and sick satisfaction people have in ‘knowing’ their enemies are ‘burning in Hell’. It gives them a feeling of ‘justice’.
When some of the writings of Mother Teresa was made public, it revealed she had gone through (as St. John of the Cross did) a ‘dark night of the soul’.

Fundamentalists had a gleeful feeding frenzy. I remember one fundamentalist almost giddy with excitement: “See! This proves it! Mother Teresa is in Hell!!”. It is extremely important to fundamentalists that Mother Teresa be in Hell. If Mother Teresa is not burning in Hell, that would make their belief/doctrine false; hence she must be burning in Hell.
For extreme Calvinists, this gets into their theology that a portion of humankind is ‘predestined to Hell’. A recent survey found 60% of born-again Christians say people were going to hell because they didn't have the "right beliefs." Whose beliefs are right is dependent upon the person you are talking to. Catholics are told (many times with glee) that it is ‘certain’ they are going to Hell.

It reflects a lack of compassion, hope, and love. It feeds into a person’s unforgiveness and bitterness toward another. In dehumanizing them with the curse of “They’re going to Hell,” it relieves them of any responsibility.

The Pharisees of Jesus day had a saying (from ancient Jewish writings): "There is joy in Heaven when a sinner drops into Hell." Jesus turned that around and said: "There is joy in heaven when a sinner repents."
The Pharisees believed in a kind of ‘OSAS’. Obviously Jesus did not.

[url="http://thetrailhome.blogspot.com/"]http://thetrailhome.blogspot.com/[/url][/quote]

All I can say, there are a lot of vengeful people out there, who want to see they're enemies destroyed. Funny, I want all my enemies to come to faith in Jesus Christ, and to give their lives totally to him and live holy lives, creating life, instead of destroying it.

And it takes away from God. I am not saved because I have said the Sinner's prayer. I have said the Sinner's prayer because I am a sinner, and I was forgiven, but that doesn't guareentee my salvation. Only God saves, and he saves who he wishes, those who should be saved are the only ones who are saved.

[Winchester]

[img]http://cliffordcoonan.dreamhosters.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bjork_07.jpg[/img]

[Selah]

...Bjork?

[Selah]

No, seriously...BJORK???

"welcome to bangkok, Bj-AHH! WHY ARE YOU HITTING ME, BJORK!!! AHHHH!!!"

lol

[thessalonian]

If they are not infallibly certain that they are 100% assured of their salvation the rules of logic kinda fall apart. You see you cannot be 100% certain you will go to heaven if you are not 100% certain that your interpretations of all the pertinent scriptures is infallibly correct. If you are only 99.1% certain that you have interpreted correctly then by the rules of logic you cannot be 100% assured of your salvation. Logically and mathematically it doesn't work.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1630994' date='Aug 18 2008, 07:31 PM']No, I am not Catholic. I just don't get hung up on me entering Heaven, because that is God's job to decide. I just have to live with his decision in the end. I put my 100 per cent trust he will do as he sees fit.[/quote]
If I am be very curious for a moment!
Why do you believe that?And what are your biblical bases for that reasoning?
Pax~

[BG45]

Personally I've been raised in the Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine. Ask Jesus into your heart, and it'll all be okay.

Sadly Scripture just doesn't line up with that. Throughout the New Testament we have references not to just having been saved, but being saved. Then there are even more references to that we will be saved.

One of the biggest sticking points against OSAS off the top of my head is 2 Tim. 2:11-12
[quote]This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.[/quote]

If we're always saved, why must we persevere? This came up once at church camp in the form of a question. A man is "saved" by saying the Sinner's Prayer, he goes on to kill dozens of people in a serial killing spree. Will he go to Heaven? The answer was yes.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1630890' date='Aug 18 2008, 05:37 PM']Recently I have become aware that protestants who believe in OSAS have a doctrine of infallilbility. They say that they can know that they are saved and will go to heaven when they die. Oddly enough I have heard some of them say that some who believe they have an infallible certainty of this will not go to heaven because they have decieved themselves and are not bearing fruit.

Comments?[/quote]


[quote name='BG45' post='1631611' date='Aug 19 2008, 11:27 AM']Personally I've been raised in the Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine. Ask Jesus into your heart, and it'll all be okay.[/quote]

i was also raised in the OSAS doctrine, or as i later called it, the "Get Out of Hell Free Card" belief.

Back to the OP, yes, i remember people talking about those who had deceived themselves. This idea helped when they were confronted with the problem of how it was possible for anyone who'd prayed the "Sinner's Prayer" to later embrace a life of sin at the risk of damnation - my Baptist teachers and pastors would have said that those people must not have truly meant the prayer when they said it to begin with. Thus, if you were honest with the prayer, then yes, you can be 100% sure of salvation. Otherwise, yes, it was possible to deceive yourself. That's how they justified OSAS.