Protestant Doctrine Of Infallibility

[thessalonian]

But how do you know if you really said it honestly and what level of honesty is required? Do you have to have renounced all sin? That after all is what repentence is. But what if you still desire that drink or that woman that you have been immoral with? In Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret" audio he says that most people who come down for a Billy Graham altar call have been up for altar calls 6 or 8 times. That's says theirs alot of doudt in their minds about whether they were really saved or not. The assurance isn't so assured for most. Of course Ray implies that most of these were never really saved because they haven't really had salvation present to him his way.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632516' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:04 AM']But how do you know if you really said it honestly and what level of honesty is required? Do you have to have renounced all sin? That after all is what repentence is. But what if you still desire that drink or that woman that you have been immoral with? In Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret" audio he says that most people who come down for a Billy Graham altar call have been up for altar calls 6 or 8 times. That's says theirs alot of doudt in their minds about whether they were really saved or not. The assurance isn't so assured for most. Of course Ray implies that most of these were never really saved because they haven't really had salvation present to him his way.[/quote]


i'm just saying that was how OSAS was presented to me. As i got older, i began to question this, wondering if those who were trying to explain it to me really believed it themselves, since it seems like such a circular loophole: honestly repent, and you'll be saved - the Blood of the Lamb will cover your desires for evil things; if you do turn back to sin, you weren't honest in your repentance in the first place... i know this is a simplification, but no one really went much deeper than this with me in my Baptist days, and i really wasn't convinced that the teachers and pastors proclaiming OSAS were as sure about it as they wanted people to think. Sorry for not being of much help.

[BG45]

DItto to what Fides said. With the way it was explained to me it was that way, or just "sometimes we give in to our desires but we're still forgiven", See 'serial killer' example last page.

[thessalonian]

fides, I was only affirming your post. Thanks much. Your former Catholic perspective is highly valued and helpful. May I quote you guys if the opportunity arises?

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632769' date='Aug 20 2008, 12:49 PM']fides, I was only affirming your post. Thanks much. Your former Catholic perspective is highly valued and helpful. May I quote you guys if the opportunity arises?[/quote]

whoah, whoah, whoah!!! i am not a former Catholic! i've been a practicing Catholic for five or six years!


i hope you meant former Baptist, and yes, you may quote me if needed.

Edited August 20, 2008 by fides quarens intellectum

[thessalonian]

My bad. I meant baptist, not Catholic. I know your Catholic.

[fides quarens intellectum]

whew. thanks.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632516' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:04 AM']But how do you know if you really said it honestly and what level of honesty is required? Do you have to have renounced all sin? That after all is what repentence is. But what if you still desire that drink or that woman that you have been immoral with? In Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret" audio he says that most people who come down for a Billy Graham altar call have been up for altar calls 6 or 8 times. That's says theirs alot of doudt in their minds about whether they were really saved or not. The assurance isn't so assured for most. Of course Ray implies that most of these were never really saved because they haven't really had salvation present to him his way.[/quote]

I've seen and watched a lot of Ray Comfort's work. I have to say, of all the Evangelists out there, he is the most correct, because he tries to evangelize the way Jesus did.

Remember, Jesus is the Role Model. It is because of him that I realize I have broken all of the commandments, I am the worst of sinners, and that I don't deserve heaven, and why I cling to Jesus so much, because without him, no matter how holy I live, my righteousness is as filthy rags, so it really doesn't amount to much.

I think Ray would be a once Trust always Trust person, like myself. Once you Trust in God's work, why stop?

[thessalonian]

Sorry makeyouthink but I don't have alot to say in favor of INDIVDIUALS who have their own theology. Trust not your own understanding. Ray and Todd Freil are more Eternal Security types. There is some value in what they do but it is too one size fits all and neglects baptism which is almost never mentioned on their program except to say that Catholicism is wrong for teaching we become Christians and "get saved" through baptism. Every single place where someone was converted in the New Testament, they were baptized.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632980' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:40 PM']Sorry makeyouthink but I don't have alot to say in favor of INDIVDIUALS who have their own theology. Trust not your own understanding. Ray and Todd Freil are more Eternal Security types. There is some value in what they do but it is too one size fits all and neglects baptism which is almost never mentioned on their program except to say that Catholicism is wrong for teaching we become Christians and "get saved" through baptism. Every single place where someone was converted in the New Testament, they were baptized.[/quote]

I've only watched a couple of videos, so I could be wrong.

Baptism identifies us with Christ, and therefore is essential for regeneration. But one must realize they are a sinner and ask for forgiveness for salvation in the first place.

[thessalonian]

The point need not be made. We Catholics certainly know the need for reconcilation with God. Acts 2:38 puts the nail in the coffin on the issue of the neccesisty of Baptismal Regeneration, but Mr. Friel and Mr. Comfort will deny it up and down and when Peter is quoted "baptism now saves you" all kinds of word gymnastics are played to deny it. Mark 16:16 is pretty clear as well but the AND in the passage becomes an or where baptism is not neccessary because the one who does not believe is not baptized and therefore is not saved. Well of course he doesn't because believing is a prerequisit to baptism as well. Anyway I find the lack of emphasis, in fact outrigth ignoring of it to make Mr. Comfort and Freil and all of protestantism's altar calls to be problematic from a Bible alone perspective. If your going to hold to Bible alone you better be consistent with it.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1633059' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:56 PM']The point need not be made. We Catholics certainly know the need for reconcilation with God. Acts 2:38 puts the nail in the coffin on the issue of the neccesisty of Baptismal Regeneration, but Mr. Friel and Mr. Comfort will deny it up and down and when Peter is quoted "baptism now saves you" all kinds of word gymnastics are played to deny it. Mark 16:16 is pretty clear as well but the AND in the passage becomes an or where baptism is not neccessary because the one who does not believe is not baptized and therefore is not saved. Well of course he doesn't because believing is a prerequisit to baptism as well. Anyway I find the lack of emphasis, in fact outrigth ignoring of it to make Mr. Comfort and Freil and all of protestantism's altar calls to be problematic from a Bible alone perspective. If your going to hold to Bible alone you better be consistent with it.[/quote]

I totally agree with you on that.

Here's the thing, if we turn Christianity into obeying all these laws, and you must do this, and that, and the other thing, you forget the most important and key thing, you must know Jesus. There will be people who repented of their sins and were baptized because they wanted to obey the rules, and Jesus will say - I never knew you.

The most important thing in Christianity is be one-on-one with Jesus in a relationship with him. Which means you talk to him, listen to him, and live for him, because that is what a relationship is about!

[thessalonian]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1633064' date='Aug 20 2008, 07:01 PM']I totally agree with you on that.

Here's the thing, if we turn Christianity into obeying all these laws, and you must do this, and that, and the other thing, you forget the most important and key thing, you must know Jesus. There will be people who repented of their sins and were baptized because they wanted to obey the rules, and Jesus will say - I never knew you.

The most important thing in Christianity is be one-on-one with Jesus in a relationship with him. Which means you talk to him, listen to him, and live for him, because that is what a relationship is about![/quote]

Jesus said "if you love me keep my commands". I am not for legalism but we cannot have a right relationship with Jesus if we are not willing to obey him and do it his way. That includes baptism. Humble submission is not legalism. It is not up to me to figure out if someone got baptized sincerely or not. But they must be baptized if for no other reason than Christ commanded it. Adam and Eve were cast out for eating an apple. Disobedience. The purpose of Christianity is to bring about obedience in us but not by the old way of following laws but by the new way of loving the savior and doing it out of love. But many times this starts with a legalistic fear of the Lord type obey the commandments out of fear more than love. But the scripture tell us that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and so I do not judge those who are there. I once was in my journey. Protestantism seems to demand of everyone this perfect relationship with God. We are all on different points in our growth.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1633133' date='Aug 20 2008, 07:18 PM']Jesus said "if you love me keep my commands". I am not for legalism but we cannot have a right relationship with Jesus if we are not willing to obey him and do it his way. That includes baptism. Humble submission is not legalism. It is not up to me to figure out if someone got baptized sincerely or not. But they must be baptized if for no other reason than Christ commanded it. Adam and Eve were cast out for eating an apple. Disobedience. The purpose of Christianity is to bring about obedience in us but not by the old way of following laws but by the new way of loving the savior and doing it out of love. But many times this starts with a legalistic fear of the Lord type obey the commandments out of fear more than love. But the scripture tell us that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and so I do not judge those who are there. I once was in my journey. Protestantism seems to demand of everyone this perfect relationship with God. We are all on different points in our growth.[/quote]

Thess, you're preaching to the choir.

Christianity is a relationship, and if you love Jesus you will do as he asks, not because he's asking, but because you love him and would do anything for him. Whatever he wants, I will do! But to know what he wants, you need to have a relationship with him. You need to talk to him and listen to him. Only when we talk and listen will we ever do all that our Lord asks us to do, so we can show him we love him.

[thessalonian]

As I have said the point your speaking of is one that one grows to. I do not judge those who are not their and do not presume upon his mercy for those who are.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1633458' date='Aug 21 2008, 07:33 AM']As I have said the point your speaking of is one that one grows to. I do not judge those who are not their and do not presume upon his mercy for those who are.[/quote]

I hear you. You have to start somewhere. I'm just saying that relationship is the true outcome for Christianity. God didn't send us a get out of hell free card. He sent his Son so we can have a relationship with him.

[MilesJesu]

"They say that they can know that they are saved and will go to heaven when they die. Oddly enough I have heard some of them say that some who believe they have an infallible certainty of this will not go to heaven because they have decieved themselves and are not bearing fruit."

In the OSAS discussion, the presumption is that sins are forgiven, past-present-FUTURE. As pointed out by another post, there is no scriptural foundation for all FUTURE, un-repentant sins being forgiven. In fact, the premise is that un-repentant sins will not be forgiven.

In looking at the differences between OSAS and a Catholic understanding of salvation, the gap begins when Protestants place an inappropriate emphasis on salvation in a soley juridical context. That is why it has to be instantaneous. If we are guilty of sin and are being convicted, then we are acquitted after accepting Jesus...hence the one time event.

However, this is a simplistic model and problematic since it does not take into account future "crimes." Protestants tend to assume that all sins - including FUTURE sins - even ones that have been unrepented because they have not been committed yet, are included in their analogy. This model besides being "unscriptural" and defying Tradition, it tramples the concept of free will.

Peace,

MilesJesu

[Nihil Obstat]

Just thought I'd throw this into the pot...

Am I the only one here who's absolutely TERRIFIED of hell?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632516' date='Aug 20 2008, 09:04 AM']But how do you know if you really said it honestly and what level of honesty is required? Do you have to have renounced all sin? That after all is what repentence is. But what if you still desire that drink or that woman that you have been immoral with? In Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret" audio he says that most people who come down for a Billy Graham altar call have been up for altar calls 6 or 8 times. That's says theirs alot of doudt in their minds about whether they were really saved or not. The assurance isn't so assured for most. Of course Ray implies that most of these were never really saved because they haven't really had salvation present to him his way.[/quote]
What a benevolent God, eh? srsly though, I guess OSAS people have to really work for their faith if they're having to be absolutely precise, other than that, as my first comment implies, God's just sorta playing with these "sinners" who are doing their altar calls and not giving them their infallible OSAS grace