Born Again Christians

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1631402' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:14 AM']I've noticed this for quite some time. It's Jesus this and Jesus that.[/quote]

"That's what all these cripples down at the VA talk about: Jeee-sus this and Jeee-sus that. They even had a [i]priest[/i] come and talk to me. He said... Gawwd is listening... and if I found Jeee-sus, I'd get to [i]walk[/i] beside him in the kingdom of Heaven. Did you hear what I said? [i]WALK[/i] beside him in the kingdom of Heaven! Well kiss my crippled [butt]. Gawwd is [i]listening[/i]? What a crock of [mushy mud pie]."

--Lt. Dan, Forrest Gump


I just felt inspired to toss a throwback to 1994.

And I remember a thread about excessive Protestant (particularly Reformed/Baptist) focus on Jesus above the other two Persons of the Trinity. Of course, even we tend to pray to Jesus more often than the other Persons (if you listen to the prayers at Mass, you'll notice it) and I think it's intended to be that way because Jesus is meant to be the Way to the Father. He is the only divine and human person.

My experience in Protestantism is that among Evangelicals and most Baptist and Reformed Christians, you will a strong emphasis on the Trinity as a "non-negotiable" belief. Some Pentecostals are not Trinitarian, and in that regard they are pseudo-Christian just like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, who all share some nuanced belief in their own version of the "Trinity." But you won't find any legitimate Protestant minister or theologian (save possibly the Anglican Communion) that will even question the Trinity as we believe it.

The pastor of my last Baptist church even blesses us in the benediction "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." He raises his right hand upward to give the blessing while the congregation raises their hands upward to receive the blessing... if that sounds a tad corny, that's probably because it is. When I visit, I'm always tempted to cross myself... I really should... it's one of those communities that loves art and music and values individual expression, so by golly I ought to cross myself!

[Selah]

[quote]Sometimes, when someone prays to the Father, they'll get looks on their faces to suggest that they feel awkward[/quote]

This is because some protestants are taught to fear the Father. I remember reading somewhere...it was a book by R.L. Hymers Jr.: "Point the sinner away from God the Father. He needs a refuge from God the Father and his Holy Wrath...Coming to God and not Jesus will get the sinner burned with fire!"

I don't understand how someone you call your "father" can be approached with fear...an unhealthy kind shown towards an enemy, not a loving friend.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Selah

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1631402' date='Aug 19 2008, 02:14 AM']Yeah, they're all the same person, but concentrating on one aspect of that person seems to be improper.[/quote]

Not to nitpick, but I'll nitpick.

God is three persons, with one same nature. God the Father is fully a person, with His own identity, and is perfect in every way. God the Father has an image of Himself, and that self-image is so perfect and so complete that it is a person as well -- Jesus. God the Father loves God the Son so completely and so perfectly, and Jesus returns the love of the Father so perfectly, that the love is, again, a person -- the Holy Spirit.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1632033' date='Aug 19 2008, 06:36 PM']Not to nitpick, but I'll nitpick.

God is three persons, with one same nature. God the Father is fully a person, with His own identity, and is perfect in every way. God the Father has an image of Himself, and that self-image is so perfect and so complete that it is a person as well -- Jesus. God the Father loves God the Son so completely and so perfectly, and Jesus returns the love of the Father so perfectly, that the love is, again, a person -- the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

not to nitpick, but [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=83841&view=findpost&p=1631405"]Aloysius already covered that.[/url]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1631797' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:01 PM']"That's what all these cripples down at the VA talk about: Jeee-sus this and Jeee-sus that. They even had a [i]priest[/i] come and talk to me. He said... Gawwd is listening... and if I found Jeee-sus, I'd get to [i]walk[/i] beside him in the kingdom of Heaven. Did you hear what I said? [i]WALK[/i] beside him in the kingdom of Heaven! Well kiss my crippled [butt]. Gawwd is [i]listening[/i]? What a crock of [mushy mud pie]."

--Lt. Dan, Forrest Gump[/quote]

Lt. Dan: Have you found Jesus yet, Gump?
Forrest: I didn't know I was supposed to be looking for him, sir.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1631407' date='Aug 19 2008, 01:23 AM']You guys are really bigoted. Nobody should start a thread like this, because you come off like some old stodgy people who can't see things from another person's perspective![/quote]
DO NOT go there.
I swear, the next time someone makes a comment like that about me without actually bothing to pay attention to what I'm saying... I don't even know.
DO NOT try that.
Once again, you're 100% blatantly incorrect.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Selah' post='1632005' date='Aug 19 2008, 06:49 PM']This is because some protestants are taught to fear the Father. I remember reading somewhere...it was a book by R.L. Hymers Jr.: "Point the sinner away from God the Father. He needs a refuge from God the Father and his Holy Wrath...Coming to God and not Jesus will get the sinner burned with fire!"

I don't understand how someone you call your "father" can be approached with fear...an unhealthy kind shown towards an enemy, not a loving friend.[/quote]That's good old fashioned misinterpritation of scripture for ya. They see the phrase "fear God", and they think it means they should actually be afraid of Him instead of in awe of Him. What can you do?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1632421' date='Aug 20 2008, 12:17 AM']That's good old fashioned misinterpritation of scripture for ya. They see the phrase "fear God", and they think it means they should actually be afraid of Him instead of in awe of Him. What can you do? [/quote]
I was entirely unaware of that whole state of them being 'afraid', so to speak. Wow.
Of course I'm not going to make big sweeping generalizations. I was careful about that on my first post.

[Selah]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1632415' date='Aug 20 2008, 02:09 AM']DO NOT go there.
I swear, the next time someone makes a comment like that about me without actually bothing to pay attention to what I'm saying... I don't even know.
DO NOT try that.
Once again, you're 100% blatantly incorrect.[/quote]


Now now... remember + =

[Balthazor]

[quote name='Selah' post='1632499' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:12 AM']Now now... remember + = [/quote]
Actually I try and pray first and talk later....

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1631402' date='Aug 19 2008, 12:14 AM']I suspect that in the next decade or so, there will be a huge movement in Christianity that begins to reject the trinity (Jesus was entirely God, and not also his son. The holy spirit is not God but just a spirit. Etc.)[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
pssst. they're called unitarians. or universalists. shoot, i can't keep them straight!

[jeffpugh]

didn't Budge keep screaming "Unitarian Universalists" a while back? I think that's the only truth she's ever spoken, that is, organisation's real name.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1631402' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:14 AM']I've noticed this for quite some time. It's Jesus this and Jesus that. They pray to specifically Jesus. They worship specifically Jesus. Sometimes, when someone prays to the Father, they'll get looks on their faces to suggest that they feel awkward. And there's just never a mention of the Holy Spirit at all. Yeah, they're all the same person, but concentrating on one aspect of that person seems to be improper. I suspect that in the next decade or so, there will be a huge movement in Christianity that begins to reject the trinity (Jesus was entirely God, and not also his son. The holy spirit is not God but just a spirit. Etc.)[/quote]

Are you sure you're not speaking from an experience slanted towards Pentecostalism? They are the only sect of Protestantism that systematically treads dangerously close (or crosses the line at times) of denying the three Divine Persons of the Trinity. You'll never hear someone like Rick Warren, Billy Graham, and I doubt even Joel Osteen challenge the Catholic Church about the Trinity. Every statement of faith you read on an Evangelical or other Protestant Christian church/organization web site will affirm the Trinity. This is probably the one belief that binds all Christians even more so than sharing one Baptism.

But, even if this movement you expect does come to pass, it won't be unprecedented. Only thing is, it would be such a huge and fundamental departure from orthodoxy that I just don't see how it could gain traction. Maybe society will become so relativistic that Christianity turns into believing whatever, in which even perhaps the shining light of Catholicism's authority will shine through the murkiness in a way that it can't at this point. I think the issues within Christianity will have more to do with morality, and especially sexual, reproductive, and other bioethical concerns, than doctrine itself. Obviously, we seen the beginning with contraception, and every time I read the headlines at The Guardian's web site, I think that can only be the beginning.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1632648' date='Aug 20 2008, 01:08 PM']+J.M.J.+
pssst. they're called unitarians. or universalists. shoot, i can't keep them straight![/quote]

Unitarian/Universalists don't believe anything except in embracing the equality of all religious beliefs. Any particular U/U can be a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, wiccan, or even agnostic/atheist (which I believe my U/U cousin is, but she's never explain what her beliefs are to me). Therefore, they don't deny the Trinity, just as they don't deny any other religious belief.

I suppose, in theory, one could be a faithful Catholic and U/U at the same time. That would be interesting...

[Selah]

We have unitarians around where I live, though they're scarce.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1632415' date='Aug 20 2008, 01:09 AM']DO NOT go there.
I swear, the next time someone makes a comment like that about me without actually bothing to pay attention to what I'm saying... I don't even know.
DO NOT try that.
Once again, you're 100% blatantly incorrect.[/quote]

I may be wrong, but it's not if I am right or wrong, it is what I perceive as what is going on here.

You make claims that people might perceive as stupid yourself, and go, you're 100 per cent wrong too. There are lots of people reading these posts, and they would go, what is he trying to say?

Nobody can read your mind over the Internet, so how do anybody know what you meant by this. I wouldn't even put such negative stuff on the internet.

[thessalonian]

To our detriment I have to say that many times Catholic neglect the Holy Spirit as well. I also would say it varies and perhaps some of the neglect is from those denominations that believe the gift of tongues and healing and some others ended with the Apostles. I don't know if you can overemphasize Jesus. Maybe if one begins to see him in a oneness manner.

I also find this discussion interesting because many times I get the arguement against praying to the saints that Jesus said to only pray to the Father. Yet when pressing some of these people about praying to Jesus or the Holy Spirit I don't usually get any kind of a response.

God bless

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1633049' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:48 PM']You make claims that people might perceive as stupid yourself, and go, you're 100 per cent wrong too. There are lots of people reading these posts, and they would go, what is he trying to say?[/quote]
Please point these out and I'll gladly accept your point.
As far as I know you're wrong about that as well.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1632788' date='Aug 20 2008, 01:20 PM']I suppose, in theory, one could be a faithful Catholic and U/U at the same time. That would be interesting...[/quote]
I don't want to argue with your or anything, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.
To be a true Catholic you'd have to accept the Church as the moral authority, and infallible. U/U will assert that your own conscience by itself is of the utmost importance, and true morality lies soley with the individual. (They assume you won't go crazy, I suppose.)
Of course I'm not U/U, so I'm likely misrepresenting them slightly. No offence to anyone, of course. It's my personal take on it.

[homeschoolmom]

You cannot be both a Catholic and a UU. The one "unifying" belief of UU is that all paths are true and you can find your own path. Catholics, of course, do not believe that all "paths" are true-- just the narrow one.