Why Must Morals Come From God And Not Anywhere Else?

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642677' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:02 PM']Start a new thread! [/quote]

I am comfortable with where I am.

Some of the Catholic Church doctrines make perfect sense, if you think about letting God be God and being aware men are just men.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1642558' date='Aug 30 2008, 05:30 PM']If someone who doesn't believe in God does good deeds, he doesn't do it because he hopes he'll get a good afterlife, he does it because he knows he'll get a good life.[/quote]

We do not do good deeds for our neighbors because we want to get into Heaven. We do good deeds because we love God [b]and[/b] our neighbors. We put God and neighbor before ourselves. Any Christian who has this selfish mindset while helping others (helping someone so [i]I[/i] get into Heaven) does not know Christ.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642690' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:25 PM']We do not do good deeds for our neighbors because we want to get into Heaven. We do good deeds because we love God [b]and[/b] our neighbors. We put God and neighbor before ourselves. Any Christian who has this selfish mindset while helping others (helping someone so [i]I[/i] get into Heaven) does not know Christ.[/quote]

I noticed that after you made a point of asking me to reply to your post, you have utterly ignored my reply.

odd.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642738' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:15 PM']I noticed that after you made a point of asking me to reply to your post, you have utterly ignored my reply.

odd.[/quote]

Hassan,

You are too obvious.

Do all you trolls come out during election times to harass good people.

She has a right not to bother talking to you.

[Hassan]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642739' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:17 PM']Hassan,

You are too obvious.

Do all you trolls come out during election times to harass good people.[/quote]

I am not a "troll" I can, do, and desire substantive discussion. HCF made a point of impugning my motives and then asked me to remember to respond to her post, I did, and she has ignored it.

I find that odd

[quote]She has a right not to bother talking to you.[/quote]

Of course she does.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642743' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:19 PM']I am not a "troll" I can, do, and desire substantive discussion. HCF made a point of impugning my motives and then asked me to remember to respond to her post, I did, and she has ignored it.

I find that odd



Of course she does.[/quote]

Than don't make demands on her.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642106' date='Aug 29 2008, 10:31 PM']God is the absolute good. Morals (as we can all agree upon) are generally defined as principles of right conduct. Since "right" is generally "good" then we can say "morals" are "good" and since goodness comes from God alone, it makes sense that He created them. I also like to say that the "conscience" helps us identify what is "right" and what is "wrong". (And, when we do chose "wrong", it is the "conscience" that hits us with guilt.) It is possible that the Holy Spirit [i]is[/i] our "conscience" or the Holy Spirit [i]guides[/i] our "conscience".

So, say that God does not exist, or that He is the great clock-maker. Does this mean that it is up to humankind to determine right and wrong? Certainly, some humans will not agree on a set moral code.

This moral code has been instituted by God.[/quote]

iawtc

And, just because some members of the human race fail to recognize God as the absolute Good, and all goodness springs from Him, doesn't mean that suddenly God disappears and doesn't exist in their lives. The reason those who do not believe are even capable to love and be loved and know right from wrong, is because God believes in them...created them, is madly in love with them and showers good upon them regardless of what they believe.

Edited August 31, 2008 by dominicansoul

[Hassan]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642745' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:20 PM']Than don't make demands on her.[/quote]

I have made the same request she made of me last night.

[HisChildForever]

I called you out on that because you were active on the forum, yet not responding to my post. I went to bed (as noted in the other thread) and while you did post, when I woke up this morning I saw a bunch of posts. Instead of giving you a poor reply, and instead of quickly glancing though the other great posts made, I decided to haul myself off to work for my 8-hour shift. I have been preoccupied and have yet to get around to it. You can argue that I have posted since, but those were hardly deep or thoughtful in the philosophical sense. Now that I have explained myself - and feeling ridiculous for having done so - I will gladly respond.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642252' date='Aug 30 2008, 01:29 AM']Yes, Kierkegaard wrote a beautifull novel on this. He had to jumop through hoops to find any justification

No he did not offer up a Holocaust as the Torah prescribes, you can transpose your Christian assumptions on it if you wish, however that does not change the text.[/quote]

That is fine, dismiss my careful explanation as a Christian assumption. Even though I [u]am[/u] the Christian and I [u]have[/u] first-hand experience as a Christian (where you do not), I really have no credibility explaining Christianity. If you want to disagree with what I just shared with you, hey, that's fine with me. But please, there's nothing wrong in being willing to understand, even if you disagree.

[quote]Yes, because God had led him to believe hw would be killing his own son[/quote]

Yes, because it was a test. Which has been clarified already.

[quote]You should read "Fear and Trembling", that's not a shot, I just think you may like it. Unless you alreay have read it[/quote]

I don't know. You seem unreceptive to everything we've all said here, so why should I be receptive to you? Unless you're into double standards, of course.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1642746' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:21 PM']iawtc[/quote]

What does that mean?

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642749' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:23 PM']I have made the same request she made of me last night.[/quote]

Great. Now that we're done being so trivial as to discuss my absence, let's continue.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642771' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:38 PM']That is fine, dismiss my careful explanation as a Christian assumption. Even though I [u]am[/u] the Christian and I [u]have[/u] first-hand experience as a Christian (where you do not), I really have no credibility explaining Christianity. If you want to disagree with what I just shared with you, hey, that's fine with me. But please, there's nothing wrong in being willing to understand, even if you disagree.[/quote]
Don't start that, I can explain it just as well as you. Knowing something doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Just because I rejected it doesn't mean I still can't explain it.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642783' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:50 PM']Don't start that, I can explain it just as well as you. Knowing something doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Just because I rejected it doesn't mean I still can't explain it.[/quote]

I was talking to Hassan.

But if you want, I can further say that your constant questioning is interesting, seeing as you already know exactly what Catholics believe and why we believe it. Again, you can disagree, but you understand. All the questions you keep posing you already know the answers to. You might not agree with them, but you know them.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1642614' date='Aug 30 2008, 05:38 PM']I don't agree with moral relativism, but I'll admit that morality can be somewhat elusive.

Murder can be considered objectively wrong on the grounds that it causes objective harm. Whether people believe it to be wrong or right would not change this. I would hold this as an axiom.[/quote]

Again mere opinion without God. Without God we are mere animals, animals kill animals all the time. It is only the authority of God which makes killing a human murder, or a human a human for that matter.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642771' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:38 PM']I called you out on that because you were active on the forum, yet not responding to my post. I went to bed (as noted in the other thread) and while you did post, when I woke up this morning I saw a bunch of posts. Instead of giving you a poor reply, and instead of quickly glancing though the other great posts made, I decided to haul myself off to work for my 8-hour shift. I have been preoccupied and have yet to get around to it. You can argue that I have posted since, but those were hardly deep or thoughtful in the philosophical sense. Now that I have explained myself - and feeling ridiculous for having done so - I will gladly respond.[/quote]

I understand this, yet you do not extend me the same understanding. That is what I find absolutely annoying.



[quote]That is fine, dismiss my careful explanation as a Christian assumption. Even though I [u]am[/u] the Christian and I [u]have[/u] first-hand experience as a Christian (where you do not)[/quote]

I was raised Catholic and tried very hard to live as a devout Catholic for years. I mentioned this before, when you made this same charge on the homosexuality thread.

[quote]I really have no credibility explaining Christianity. If you want to disagree with what I just shared with you, hey, that's fine with me. But please, there's nothing wrong in being willing to understand, even if you disagree.[/quote]

I did listen. Judaism is a religion of action not thought. Your appeal to "mental" holocausts just does not, to me at least, seem to fit in with traditional Jewish philosophical thought.



[quote]Yes, because it was a test. Which has been clarified already.[/quote]

And did God deceive Abraham to implement this "test"?



[quote]I don't know. You seem unreceptive to everything we've all said here, so why should I be receptive to you? Unless you're into double standards, of course.[/quote]


That is non-sense.

I genuinely tried to start an honest conversation on religious faith after the questions I received on the homosexuality thread. I returned, as I promised I would in that thread, to accusations that I was a liar, simply trying to cause trouble and run off, and a host of other charges. Who is not open to the other? I find it difficult to have honest conversations with people who constantly call me a liar and impugn my motives without any supporting evidence.

I am not an Existentialist or a Christian and Kierkegaard does NOT represent my views. I recommended it simply out of consideration for you, as it is a beautiful meditation on Christian faith and I thought you might enjoy it.

[KnightofChrist]

The best argument against the existence of God by atheists, which can also deal with morality is If God is real why does He allow bad things to happen to good people?

However this question or statement often times is flawed, because if there is no God there are really no 'bad' things, and no 'good' people.

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1642792' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:57 PM']The best argument against the existence of God by atheists, which can also deal with morality is If God is real why does He allow bad things to happen to good people?[/quote]

It is an argument against the Christian God

[quote]However this question or statement often times is flawed, because if there is no God there are really no 'bad' things, and no 'good' people.[/quote]


The question is this: Does the suffering we see fit with the Christian God.

You are correct, the question is often poorly phrased by atheists.

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1642786' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:52 PM']Again mere opinion without God. Without God we are mere animals, animals kill animals all the time. It is only the authority of God which makes killing a human murder, or a human a human for that matter.[/quote]

You are, to an extent, correct. And I wish it were not so

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642790' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:57 PM']I understand this, yet you do not extend me the same understanding. That is what I find absolutely annoying.[/quote]

Who says I have no understanding?

[quote]I was raised Catholic and tried very hard to live as a devout Catholic for years. I mentioned this before, when you made this same charge on the homosexuality thread.[/quote]

I either missed it or I forgot, so I apologize.


[quote]I did listen. Judaism is a religion of action not thought. Your appeal to "mental" holocausts just does not, to me at least, seem to fit in with traditional Jewish philosophical thought.[/quote]

I was trying to explain how it is impossible for God to lie.


[quote]And did God deceive Abraham to implement this "test"?[/quote]

He asked Abraham to obey Him. Abraham obeyed. There was no deception involved.

[quote]I genuinely tried to start an honest conversation on religious faith after the questions I received on the homosexuality thread. I returned, as I promised I would in that thread, to accusations that I was a liar, simply trying to cause trouble and run off, and a host of other charges. Who is not open to the other? I find it difficult to have honest conversations with people who constantly call me a liar and impugn my motives without any supporting evidence.[/quote]

I greatly respect Madame V's opinions.

[quote]I am not an Existentialist or a Christian and Kierkegaard does NOT represent my views. I recommended it simply out of consideration for you, as it is a beautiful meditation on Christian faith and I thought you might enjoy it.[/quote]

Thank you for being thoughtful.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1642792' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:57 PM']The best argument against the existence of God by atheists, which can also deal with morality is If God is real why does He allow bad things to happen to good people?

However this question or statement often times is flawed, because if there is no God there are really no 'bad' things, and no 'good' people.[/quote]

Good catch.

[Apotheoun]

Virtue (i.e., living a moral life) is a participation in the ultimate good, i.e., God.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642804' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:13 PM']Who says I have no understanding?[/quote]

You ask me to understand your schedule, which I am fine with. You also accuse me of sticking with my modus operandi of running off etc when I left to sleep, I find that a bit hypocritical. Or when I must leave because I have a busy week ahead of me. I only ask you extend me the same consideration and understanding that you ask I extend you.



[quote]I either missed it or I forgot, so I apologize.[/quote]

That is fine




[quote]I was trying to explain how it is impossible for God to lie.[/quote]

I understand what you are trying to explain.




[quote]He asked Abraham to obey Him. Abraham obeyed. There was no deception involved.[/quote]

He did not lead Abraham to believe that he would be sacraficing his son Isaac?



[quote]I greatly respect Madame V's opinions. [/quote]

You are entitled to your opinion.



[quote]Thank you for being thoughtful.[/quote]

that is fine