God And Morality

[Hassan]

reguarding moral actions

does God will it because it is moral, or is it moral because God wills it?

[HisChildForever]

We already have a morality thread. Is this really necessary? Just post your questions there.

[Apotheoun]

God wills a particular action because it is good, and the action in question is good because God is the [i]logoi[/i] (i.e., reasons) in the many created things.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1642827' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:32 PM']God wills a particular action because it is good, and the action in question is good because God is the [i]logoi[/i] (i.e., reasons) in the many created things.[/quote]
That's a good answer, thank you.

I've always been under the impression that the logic was circular because it would be demostrated as: God wills it because he is all good, and it is good because God wills it.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642823' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:30 PM']We already have a morality thread. Is this really necessary? Just post your questions there.[/quote]


I did, it was not really adressed.

[Apotheoun]

The Eastern Fathers believed that created nature exists within God, albeit not in the divine essence, which is utterly transcendent and hetero-ousios in relation to the world, but in the divine energy. Now because creation exists within God it follows that the good is fixed within created nature, and that is why the fall of Adam did not corrupt human nature, but only clouded man's personal enactment of his nature, which itself remains innately good.

Ultimately, salvation (i.e., theosis) involves the reintegration of man's personal use of his nature, with the good that is inherently present and fixed within his nature, and which always directs him to his true end, i.e., God.

Edited August 31, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1642880' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:47 PM']The Eastern Fathers believed that created nature exists in God, albeit not in the divine essence, which is utterly transcendent and hetero-ousios in relation to the world, but in the divine energy. Now because creation exists within God it follows that the good is fixed within created nature, and that is why the fall of Adam did not corrupt human nature, but only clouded man's personal enactment of his nature, which itself remains innately good.

Ultimately, salvation (i.e., theosis) involves the reintegration of man's personal use of his nature, with the good that is inherently present and fixed within his nature, and which always directs him to his true end, i.e., God.[/quote]


This is why I like Eastern Catholicism over Western

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642885' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:47 PM']This is why I like Eastern Catholicism over Western[/quote]
I agree.

Excellent explanation.

[Don John of Austria]

It is moral because God wills it. God is the origin and arbiter of Goodness. His divine will makes it Good. So yes if God willed that killing 3 year olds was Good it would be Good. However that would not happen because God does not change, since He does not change, what He has willed- is willed- therefore there is no chance of such a thing occuring.

That is my very uneastern answer.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1647259' date='Sep 4 2008, 10:51 AM']It is moral because God wills it. God is the origin and arbiter of Goodness. His divine will makes it Good. So yes if God willed that killing 3 year olds was Good it would be Good. However that would not happen because God does not change, since He does not change, what He has willed- is willed- therefore there is no chance of such a thing occuring.

That is my very uneastern answer.[/quote]
To me, it just seems circular, it doesn't really give any insight into what goodness is, only that God is goodness and goodness is whatever God wills. It seems arbitrary.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1647642' date='Sep 4 2008, 07:44 PM']To me, it just seems circular, it doesn't really give any insight into what goodness is, only that God is goodness and goodness is whatever God wills. It seems arbitrary.[/quote]



Well I fail to see how it is circular in anyway... it is in fact the most linear of logic.

God is the origin of everything, He is the Creator, He is the Prime Mover, the Causation of everything, He created from nothing, all that is is His handiwork. Therefore what he deifnes as Good is Good... and it is, in a strict sense, arbitrary I suppose... as I said, He is the ARBITER of Goodness.


The idea of Goodness with out God is madness, there are no ideas without God, there are no forms without God, God is the origin of all things, it is He that gives meaning to all things, one can learn nothing about Goodness with out learning about God.

If you want to learn about what Gododness is, study what God has said it is.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1647657' date='Sep 4 2008, 09:16 PM']Well I fail to see how it is circular in anyway... it is in fact the most linear of logic.

God is the origin of everything, He is the Creator, He is the Prime Mover, the Causation of everything, He created from nothing, all that is is His handiwork. Therefore what he deifnes as Good is Good... and it is, in a strict sense, arbitrary I suppose... as I said, He is the ARBITER of Goodness.


The idea of Goodness with out God is madness, there are no ideas without God, there are no forms without God, God is the origin of all things, it is He that gives meaning to all things, one can learn nothing about Goodness with out learning about God.

If you want to learn about what Gododness is, study what God has said it is.[/quote]

This is why I like western Catholicism.

[Apotheoun]

Anything that makes it sound as if God could will something contrary to His nature must be avoided. Thus, although God's will and His nature are distinct, they are at the same time inseparable. In other words, God cannot do things that are contrary to His nature, which is infinitely good, because that which is contrary to His nature has no real essential being.

Moreover, if one focuses simply upon the divine will in isolation from the divine nature and energy, one posits the false idea that the good is simply arbitrary. Now -- of course -- as Christians we know that God is bound by His nature, which is in itself good, while also recognizing the fact that this idea involves no limitation upon God, because evil has not essential existence and therefore it has no proper relation to the divinity.

Ultimately, ideological systems (like nominalism) that focus too much upon the divine will in isolation from the divine nature and energy succumb to moral relativism.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1647973' date='Sep 5 2008, 09:30 AM']Anything that makes it sound as if God could will something contrary to His nature must be avoided. Thus, although God's will and His nature are distinct, they are at the same time inseparable. In other words, God cannot do things that are contrary to His nature, which is infinitely good, because that which is contrary to His nature has no real essential being.

Moreover, if one focuses simply upon the divine will in isolation from the divine nature and energy, one posits the false idea that the good is simply arbitrary. Now -- of course -- as Christians we know that God is bound by His nature, which is in itself good, while also recognizing the fact that this idea involves no limitation upon God, because evil has not essential existence and therefore it has no proper relation to the divinity.

Ultimately, ideological systems (like nominalism) that focus too much upon the divine will in isolation from the divine nature and energy succumb to moral relativism.[/quote]


I do not have time for a full response to this, however, I will say I strongly object to the joining of the words [i]God [/i]and [i]cannot[/i]. God [i]does not [/i]act in certian ways, but He is not bound, ever, by anything. God IS and because He IS, as opposed to was , is, and will be, His Will does not change. But that is the extent of what we can say regarding the matter. Evil is that which opposes God, its existance is only it's opposition to what IS, however, the idea that God's Will is bound in anyway is unacceptable. The Good is what God has determined it to be, nothing more, nothing less, it has no exitanance independent of God's Will.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Don John of Austria

[Apotheoun]

God cannot command anything contrary to the good, because the good is a natural energy of divinity, which means that the good is not capricious or arbitrary; instead, it is one of the many [i]logoi[/i] of God, and the many [i]logoi[/i] are the one [i]Logos[/i]. In other words, God is the good. Moreover, to focus upon the divine will without at the same time holding that it is bound by the divine nature is contrary to Catholic doctrine.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1649258' date='Sep 6 2008, 03:32 PM']God cannot command anything contrary to the good, because the good is a natural energy of divinity, which means that the good is not capricious or arbitrary; instead, it is one of the many [i]logoi[/i] of God, and the many [i]logoi[/i] are the one [i]Logos[/i]. In other words, God is the good. Moreover, to focus upon the divine will without at the same time holding that it is bound by the divine nature is contrary to Catholic doctrine.[/quote]
God is the Good.... That seems to be exactly what I said above. And no it is not, contrary to Catholic Doctrine. Catholic Doctrine does not hold that the Divine Will is bound by anything at all, it does hold that one cannot truely seperate the Divine Will from the Divine Nature, nor either from the Divine Intellect, and that any such distinction must be understood to be a distinction made by a finite mind and not a real distinction. God is ...in the word of the 1st Vatican Council "incomprehensable". However that does not help with the original question which I still would answer as above, things are Good because God has said that they are so.

Please direct me to a doctrinal chruch document which declares that God is Bound.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1649258' date='Sep 6 2008, 03:32 PM']God cannot command anything contrary to the good, because the good is a natural energy of divinity, which means that the good is not capricious or arbitrary; instead, it is one of the many [i]logoi[/i] of God, and the many [i]logoi[/i] are the one [i]Logos[/i]. In other words, God is the good. Moreover, to focus upon the divine will without at the same time holding that it is bound by the divine nature is contrary to Catholic doctrine.[/quote]
God is the Good.... That seems to be exactly what I said above. And no it is not, contrary to Catholic Doctrine. Catholic Doctrine does not hold that the Divine Will is bound by anything at all, it does hold that one cannot truely seperate the Divine Will from the Divine Nature, nor either from the Divine Intellect, and that any such distinction must be understood to be a distinction made by a finite mind and not a real distinction. God is ...in the word of the 1st Vatican Council "incomprehensable". However that does not help with the original question which I still would answer as above, things are Good because God has said that they are so.

Please direct me to a doctrinal chruch document which declares that God is Bound.

[Apotheoun]

God wills according to His nature, and so it is His nature – and not His will – that determines or establishes the good. With that said, it follows that God cannot will that human beings practice idolatry, because idolatry is contrary to His nature, nor can He will murder (i.e., the intentional killing of an innocent human being), because such an act is contrary to the good, which is always determined according to His nature. In fact, He cannot will anything contrary to reason ([i]Logos[/i]), because to do so involves the negation of His own being, since God is the [i]Logos[/i] in all things. Finally, the idea that the divine will understood in isolation from the divine nature determines the good in a capricious manner (i.e., a position that is called "voluntarism") has been rejected by the Church because it ultimately involves a denial of what the West calls the "analogia entis," and what the East calls the "analogia energeia," i.e., the fact that there is within created nature an analogical relation, which by definition includes dissimilarity as well, between created nature and God. Pope Benedict spoke about this in his speech at Regensburg when he explained why the Catholic Church rejects the idea that man can ". . . only know God's [i]voluntas ordinata[/i]. [And that] beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done." [1] In fact this idea – as the Pope points out – is closer to certain stands of thought in Islamic theology, and he goes on to warn against the dangers inherent in this ideological viewpoint, which he says can lead to ". . . the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness." [2]

Notes:

[1] Pope Benedict XVI, "Meeting with the Representatives of Science," 12 September 2006.
[2] ibid.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1649909' date='Sep 7 2008, 12:54 PM']God wills according to His nature, and so it is His nature – and not His will – that determines or establishes the good. With that said, it follows that God cannot will that human beings practice idolatry, because idolatry is contrary to His nature, nor can He will murder (i.e., the intentional killing of an innocent human being), because such an act is contrary to the good, which is always determined according to His nature. In fact, He cannot will anything contrary to reason ([i]Logos[/i]), because to do so involves the negation of His own being, since God is the [i]Logos[/i] in all things. Finally, the idea that the divine will understood in isolation from the divine nature determines the good in a capricious manner (i.e., a position that is called "voluntarism") has been rejected by the Church because it ultimately involves a denial of what the West calls the "analogia entis," and what the East calls the "analogia energeia," i.e., the fact that there is within created nature an analogical relation, which by definition includes dissimilarity as well, between created nature and God. Pope Benedict spoke about this in his speech at Regensburg when he explained why the Catholic Church rejects the idea that man can ". . . only know God's [i]voluntas ordinata[/i]. [And that] beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done." [1] In fact this idea – as the Pope points out – is closer to certain stands of thought in Islamic theology, and he goes on to warn against the dangers inherent in this ideological viewpoint, which he says can lead to ". . . the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness." [2]

Notes:

[1] Pope Benedict XVI, "Meeting with the Representatives of Science," 12 September 2006.
[2] ibid.[/quote]


These are not Doctrinal documents. You said Catholic Doctrine, these statements do not qualify. Please refer me to a Doctrinal document which impinges on the Omnipotence of God and binds His Will.
That said, there is no significant disagreement in what has been said here and what I said above. Lets see if I can manage to structure simply enough for the internet not to get in the way of understanding.


1. God IS
2. God co-exist with creation but is not in creation
3. God therefore is not within time, nor subject to change in anyway
4. Therefore God is truely Eternal
5. God has no composition, He is not assembeled of parts and has no parts, His will, nature, a intellect and the like are not seperate and distinct. We only refer to them in such a manner because our finite minds will not allow otherwise with understanding.
5. Therefore, what God has willed, IS willed, in an absolute sense.
6 This Will cannot be contrary to his nature because there is not real differance between His Nature and His Will----but this as a cannot of Logic, not a cannot of Binding----God, is not bound
7. Therefore, we are able to discover His Nature (in a limited and finite way) by examining what He Wills.
8.Furthermore, because God is not a temporal creature, what He wills now is what He has always willed and it is not subject to alteration...
9.This means what we have learned about His Nature also is not subject to change as His Nature simply IS
10. However, none of this requires that God have the Nature He has, one cannot place requirements on God. God is the origin of all things, the definer of all things. If God Willed that Murder was Good then it would be Good. That would require God to have a differant Nature than He does have, (and I am not saying God changes,) so God does not and will not, and in a strict logical sense only, cannot do such a thing, but it is dangerously arrogant position to say that if God were to Will something it would not be so.

For we [i]are dogmatically [/i] held to believe that God is ALMIGHTY and INCOMPREHENSABLE-- God can do what ever God wills. More to the point what God Wills to Happen Happens, whatever that might be. Since Gods Nature and Will are not actually distinct from one another though they act distinctly His will only acts withing the confinds of His Nature, butthis in no way cn be interpreted to mean that Gods power is in anyway limited, or that He is in anyway limited.

You can look to the Decrees of Vatican I for the Dogmatic statment that God is Almighty and Incomprehensibleamong other things.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Don John of Austria

[Apotheoun]

The faith is not limited to "doctrinal documents." God cannot will something contrary to His own nature. I am sorry to say it but your view of the divine will is basically Islamic, not Catholic.