Who Will You Be Voting For?

[morostheos]

I, too, am extremely conflicted. I don't feel that I honestly can vote for any candidate free of conscience. Bush has weakened just about every major environmental law on the books for the sake of more money for big oil, and Kerry is pro-choice. I just can't win.

Who wants to make a new party with me that is completely faithful to the teachings of the magisterium?? It wouldn't be the "Catholic" party, because religion and politics aren't the same thing and we shouldn't have the Church itself active in politics, but it could be the "Be don't a dope" party.

[MrsFrozen]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Mar 5 2004, 12:51 PM'] I said John Kerry and proud of it. I like Kerry, even with his shortfalls, more than I like Bush. And anything Kerry does that is tottaly insane can be stoped in the Senate. [/quote]
Voting for a pro-abortion candidate is a sin.

[cmotherofpirl]

And you can't get more pro-death than Kerry.

He is the most liberal person in the entire Senate.

[Dave]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Mar 5 2004, 01:51 PM'] I said John Kerry and proud of it. I like Kerry, even with his shortfalls, more than I like Bush. And anything Kerry does that is tottaly insane can be stoped in the Senate. [/quote]
If you knowingly vote for Kerry, you commit a mortal sin. Heck, you may have already committed a mortal sin by intending to vote for him. As long as you're determined to do what the Church seriously forbids, you better not receive Holy Communion, as you'd be committing sacrilege.

Edited March 6, 2004 by Dave

[jmjtina]

The choice between a candidate who will advocate killing at any time in the womb for any reason and another who has banned Partial Birth Abortion, and has stopped foreign aid that supports abortion, appoints more Pro-Life Bioethics Council Members, then my vote is clear. Right now life is the most important to me than any other issue.

[Rebirth flame]

If any of you have read the "abortion almost overturned thread," it's relatively obvious who i would vote for (Bush), except i'm 17, so i can't...

i absolutely agree with you, Al, when you said you detest politics. it is, unfortunately, fact that a really honest and pure politician is a rarity anymore. people just wanna get power and authority, but they don't have the responsibility or the morality to uphold such an influential position in society.

it smells of elderberries that Bush is all for capital punishment, but it smells of elderberries more that Kerry wants to kill people that have done [i]absolutely[/i] nothing wrong!!! don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that capital punishment is justified because they've done something to "deserve" it, because none here on earth have the authority to choose who lives and who dies. But, i am saying that if you look at it in more of a larger scale, abortion is impacting us much more than capital punishment.

and, if i have ot hear one more thing about Kerry being in the vietnam war, i think i'm gonna vomit. He thinks that's the only reason people should vote for him!!!

[Iacobus]

I did some number crunching last night and found out that the pres. views on abortion have almost NOTHING to do with the number of abortions in the US. Which is kind of sad. Abortion is a social norm and the sitting pres has ALMOST no control over it. This is what I posted in the other thread and it is what makes me the most mad.

[quote]I am not saying Kerry is the best person to ever run for the office. I just like him more than I like Bush. The fact that we undergo almost 1 abortion for every 2 people alive in the US (puke, why is that number so high). We need to fix the problem.

Regan and Bush (W. H.) both had the law that Kerry states that he will remove in effect during thier terms. The number of abortions in the US per year peaked under the 1st Bush and DECLINED under Bill Clinton by 163,200 abortions per year during his 1st term. This is with the pro-abortion rules.

0.46 abortions per person in Mass. in 1996
0.44 abortions per person in TX in 1996

Not a great stat different between the state in which Bush was governer and the State in which Kerry was senator.

But don't take my facts as true, check them, I used www.abortiontv.com for the numbers on abortions per year and InfoPlease for the number of people living in each state.[/quote]

The man in the WH has almost no influance on the rate of abortions. The only change G. W. Bush has given us the the P-BA bill.

And if you really want to be mad at some one think about this. The Dutch (I think it was them) have a company that mans a small fleet of "abortion" boats that sail to a port where abortion is illegal find women who want an abortion. Then they take those women aboard and sail out 5 or so miles from the coast. They are now in international waters and are governed by the laws of the nation the vessel is registered in. They abort the life and return the women to their home port and sail on.

[Rebirth flame]

it's not just the abortion thing, though. someone else (props to Colleen) had a good point when they said that voting for a Catholic who really doesn't seem to act Catholic will confuse those who aren't very familiar with the church's teachings. it's a double standard to say that you are Catholic, but to then say that abortion is suitable. we hear in the book of revelation that if we are even the least bit lukewarm, Jesus will spit us from his mouth. he would prefer we be completely against him or completely for him, than to pretend to be one way and act another.

i'm not picking on you, Iacobus. i am not saying that you even remotely stand for everything that Kerry stands for. but i am saying that Kerry should not present a double standard of himself. it doesn't sell him as being a truly honest and suitable cantidate for presidency. i don't know about everyone else, but i want someone in office that i know i can trust (not saying that Kerry isn't trustworthy, but again, the double standard doesnt help his case too much...).

Edited March 6, 2004 by Rebirth flame

[Iacobus]

Thank you Rebirth flame. Nice to know I am not being picked on. I have had a "troubled" past with some of this hot button issues. And as much as I deny it parts (small but ever present) carry over with me. I see what you mean by the double standard. I want someone I can trust to be my pres. too. I just don't trust GW Bush or Johnsonville brat Chency either. Kerry Bush Chency are all politicians and are worried about their jobs and postions. If lieing will adavnce them, than it is free to do. I also want a pres. that gives more interviews and press confrernces. The Bush WH hasn't been big on that and according to some media outlets is the hardest WH to get info from for a LONG time.

I wish the money that we pumped into Iraq or the money Bush put into tax cuts or the money that he is going to use to try and go to the moon (can ANYONE tell me why we are doing that?) would have gone to some thing that would lower the number of abortions in the world. 4,100 a day, 1 for every women's lifetime. Something has to be done about that and the how many billion could we have put into futhering that cause as a goverment? Could we have spent that 84 billion that we gave to Iraq last year on adoption services? Could the 1.5 TRILLION dollar tax cut have gone to women's care centers? What is the goal here?

Maybe we should all pray for Kerry to change. He may have some bad views but he still is human and desevering of our prayers.

[Rebirth flame]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Mar 6 2004, 02:41 PM'] Maybe we should all pray for Kerry to change. He may have some bad views but he still is human and desevering of our prayers. [/quote]
amen.

[Iacobus]

Where in the CCC does it say voting for a person that isn't 100% pro-life is a sin, much less a mortal sin?

I asked the Bio-medical ethics guy for my area (who is also my parish priest about that. He told me that it was not a sin, much less mortal, to support Kerry and that no politician is strictly pro-life. We must look at them fully, who does more for the sick, the old, the outcast, the poor, the oppresed, the dying, the young, everyone! And base our votes on that. And the greatest sin would be not to vote at all. To not care about the race or the issues. To become disintrested.

[Rebirth flame]

i was thinking this, but i didn't say anything earlier, but anyway, if using the logic that voting for someone who isn't all pro life is bad, then it would be a sin to vote for Bush as well, seeing as he supports the death penalty.

we can't obviously vote for no one, b/c then there will be no morality behind the person being elected. which is exactly why, in my opinion, we need a political party based off the moral issues of this world, and not just political stance. (of course, this party would probably become used just for political stance after a while, too, but that's where reformationin our society is needed.)

[Iacobus]

I see what you mean Rebirth, a few weeks ago the radio had a debate between the Republicans running for Seante in IL. One of the questions was from a man who said he was pro-life, by which he meant that he was anti-abortion, anti-death pently, anti-war. He asked what their views on those topics were. ALL the the people who had that posed to them answered the part about abortion (which they already answered in the debate) but skiped the last two topics.

Captial punishment is a pretty big issue here in IL. A few years ago the state found 13 (?) man on death row that did not commit the crime. Most of the cases were overturned on DNA. But a lot of them had issues with the DA or police withholding info that would help his case. So you can't really say that you are 100% okay with the Death Pelenty becasue these people have commited crimes and are not innconent like the unborn. Our courts are run by men and no man is prefect in his jugdement or ruling. There are inccoent men on death row all over the USA. So stating that the DP is okay becasue all the people killed on it are guilty is not 100% true.

[FX2]

Sorry bout this...i see u guys talking about abortion, but i wanna bring it back to 9/11 . What really irked me is how Iacobus blamed 9/11 on Bush, when Clinton had Osama Bin Laden in his "sights" and yet didnt follow through with capturing him. I dont see how you could blame it on a president who was in office for 9 months, while a president who was in office for 8 years did abaloutely nothing about it.

[Iacobus]

What I was saying was that WJC had a plan to go after Bin Laden however the plan was not fully deveopled until late in '00. Pres. try to avoid handing over active war so deley the plan and give it to the incoming pres to carry out. Ike did this with the Bay of Pigs and JFK. GWB could have acted on the plan but didn't. There were warnings given to Bush about a 9/11 style attack. I never intened to blame 9/11 on Bush. However, there were intel failures and a lack of go ahead ideas in the WH in '01. The reports may have been vague but still should have been followed up on by the CIA and NSA is nessecry with an pres. order.

I am also upset about Bush using the 9/11 attacks for political gain. In doing that he is cheaping the loss of all the men and women in NYC and Washington and PA and the loss of our troops in Afganastan and the loss of over 500 young men and boys in Iraq.

[Aloysius]

FDR used pearl harbor in his reelection campaign.

Lincoln used the Civil War.

Kerry uses his vietnam experience.


war is an important issue. Bush's response to 911 is a big part of his presidency.

i said it b4 and i'll say it again: Gore, Carry, Clinton, You, Me, if we had been in office we would not have had a chance to prevent 911.

Clinton weakened our military... i guess that was part of his big plan to give the next prez the way to catch B.L.??!! perpostuous

Clinton did not intend anything you're trying to claim... this is all inference from ppl who had nothing to do with it.

Clinton could've had bin laden, he didnt take the risk. on numerous occasions. this was his passive policy, and it was no different when he had the plan in 2000.


bush deserves to be able to use this stuff for political gain, it was his policy and this is the policy ppl would be voting for, a policy of making the world a safer place. it in no way cheapens it... you're brainwashed by the media. all those ppl CNN and the like had on were coached, they all said the exact same thing

Bush is the best chance for this country, at home and abroad.

so, do we let the iraquis call them french fries or make em call em freedom fries?

[Iacobus]

Al, Clinton, I will concede, weakened the armed forces. Do you know why? What was differnet in 1982 and 1992? .................. Well the USSR no longer existed. We didn't have to worry about 14263464356 tanks driving through Europe. The Red Army wasn't about to fire a slavo of nukes at Washington. The Cold War was over. Did we need another 1,000,000,000 tanks. Let us have a chart of the Armed Forces Budget for Regan, Clinton, and Bush.
******************Cold War Ends--------------------------------------------
....... Regan - 1986 Clinton 1996 Clinton 2001 Bush 2002
Tanks 840...........................0.................0.......................0.
Aircraft 399..........................34..................52....................58
Ships 40............................6..................6......................5

Sorry the Chart does look very good. But as you can see Regan wanted a ton more tanks and planes and boats. As you can see the numbers of the tanks between Bush and Clinton is not very big. Neither of them increased the size of the aromered calvary. Now we could say that Bush likes the AF better than Clinton did, he gace them SIX more planes than Clintion. But it looks like Bush doesn't care about our navy, cutting the number of ships given. What you are saying is compeable to saying Regan cut the size becasue he requested 3 horses in 1984 where Lincoln had asked for 188,718 new horses. Methods of war are changed between 1864 and 1984 and did the world climate between 1986 and 1996.

[quote]A commander in chief leads the militray built by those who came before him. There is little that he or his defense secretary can improve the force they have to deploy. It is all the work of the previous administrations. Decisions made today shape the force of tomorrow.... And when that war [The 1st Gulf War] ended, the first thing I did was to place a call to California, and say thank you to President Ronald Regan. ----- Johnsonville brat Cheney, the Southern Center for International Studies, August 2000.[/quote]

If WJC weakened the army how come we "won" in Iraq and Afganastan. Neither of those wars were long and drawn out, the aftermath is but the wars were short. Thus did Clintion really weaken the Army?

Lincoln used the Civil War. Yes he did. Do you know what his solgan was? "Don't change horses in the middle of the river." Did you know he almost lost? The Union won a few big battles before Nov of '64 and those wins had him relected.

Bush respone to 9/11 can be a key to his re-election bid. But does his have to show images of the WTC burning? Falling?

Oh and I don't watch CNN, too Fox like, why too much hype and dumb stories. But that is just me.

[littleflower+JMJ]

sorry i can't vote for someone who calls themselves catholic but is far from it :

kerry has plans to spread PP everywhere, is willing to push abortion farther and really doesn't care about the ppl if his willing to do that to mothers and children.

i dont want the blood on my hands of supporting him and helping abortion to stay alive :shame:

i'm voting for Bush!! woot woot!! :cheer: :cheer:

[Iacobus]

Looking at the poll above, I can see that I am out numbered here. No matter what I post will change that and likewise no matter what you post will change me. We are all very firmly set in our view points and no one wants to change. I am not giving up my ideas but I am saying that slaming our heads into the wall is dumb and maybe we should all just give up pray that the best man will win, Kerry will changes his views on abortion, and that we may all enjoy peace in our day. God and the voters this Nov will decide this for us and our bickering here won't help anything. And this argument is getting dirty.

Truce?

[Rebirth flame]

Amen, my brother!!!!

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