Freaky Mass!

[CatherineM]

We had 6 EM's today. What bothers me the most, is that we have a retired priest in our parish. We also had 3 Franciscan monks and 3 nuns in the liturgy today. The retired priest could at least help distribute the Eucharist even if he isn't co-celebrating. He does say mass during the week, so he isn't incapable. Seeing a priest receive the Eucharist from an EM just freaks me out. I'd also rather see the monks and nuns used before a single layman is used.

On the positive side, we had music in mass for the first time in two months.

[Balthazor]

I understand completely. I go to a mass said in Czech because the English Parish here is just....not kosher.

The profession of faith which is usually the Nicene Creed is ALWAYS replaced by baptismal vows. The parish is not cohesive in actions, most do not kneel during consecration but the worst is that some (not just those with bad knees) sit during consecration. The church was built probably in the 13th century yet they do not use the traditional tabernacle preffering instead to put Jesus in a side chapel that is completely inaccessable to anyone but the priests and friars.

There are other things, maybe not exactly abuses, but annoying enough to make me stop attending that church and go to a different church where the mass is not in English. But the Priest there speaks English so I can do my confession there . Today I brought another American to Church and introduced him to the priest.... who mentioned that there was an English Speaking church.... but then he grinned and said "but she doesn't like it."
He thinks my anal-rentiveness is funny.

[MissyP89]

The presence of EMs never bothers me...but, then again, I hide my face until I go up. My parish uses 6 or 8, even in yesterday's hurricane when there were maybe 150 people present.

[Domine ut Videam]

I wouldn't necessary call that a "Freaky Mass" perhaps because my parish at home is quite similar. I used to be upset by it, but now just try to focus on the fact that a miracle is happening. Because being upset by something that can cause such a disturbance and really distract from the true focus of why are worshipping, in my own parish just really isn't worth it.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='missionseeker' post='1649926' date='Sep 7 2008, 12:30 PM']Holding hand is against the norm in the GIRM.[/quote]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' post='1650006' date='Sep 7 2008, 01:52 PM']Holding hands during the Our Father: against the rubrics.[/quote]

wait - it was my understanding that the GIRM didn't specify a posture for the faithful during the Our Father... Let me see if one of our resident Church Scholars has addressed this one...

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=7762"]found what a PM Church Scholar said on the matter[/url]

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Instead of criticizing the Mass, offer it up to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Pray any novena you want and offer up your petitions for that Parish.

Seriously, what are we going to do if we just "complain".

[philothea]

[i]sigh...[/i]

The only thing that really bugged me today was how, instead of "The Lord be with you," the priest kept saying, "The Lord [b]is[/b] with you." (That exchange is already a bad translation, do we have to mess it up further?) He changed a lot of words to be "friendlier" and "more inclusive" too. I'm all for friendly and inclusive, but let's not mess with the mass, k?

But this is at a missionary order's chapel, which I just go to when I'm in the area. I still appreciate their work, so I try not to be too irritated.

(It's almost like the music director is trying to compensate... the more casual the priests get, the more Latin hymns are used. )

[MissyP89]

OMGosh, that reminds me! We sang Ubi Caritas yesterday! My Novus Ordo, Marty Haugen loving parish sang in LATIN!

I almost fell out of my pew.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Proud2BCatholic139' post='1650249' date='Sep 7 2008, 05:08 PM']Instead of criticizing the Mass, offer it up to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Pray any novena you want and offer up your petitions for that Parish.

Seriously, what are we going to do if we just "complain".[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
amen.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Proud2BCatholic139' post='1650249' date='Sep 7 2008, 07:08 PM']Instead of criticizing the Mass, offer it up to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Pray any novena you want and offer up your petitions for that Parish.

Seriously, what are we going to do if we just "complain".[/quote]

Thank you for your advice,and generally that is my attitude. However pointing out things that are clearly against the norms and guidelines of the Church is not "complaining". I think if more of us "complained" we might not be in this position- [color="#FF0000"]having our liturgies hijacked by people with agendas to remake the Church into their own image[/color].

Besides, the way we celebrate the liturgy shows what we REALLY believe about our faith. ( Not trying to start a debate!!)

Edited September 8, 2008 by Saint Therese

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1650428' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:29 AM']Thank you for your advice,and generally that is my attitude. However pointing out things that are clearly against the norms and guidelines of the Church is not "complaining". I think if more of us "complained" we might not be in this position- [color="#FF0000"]having our liturgies hijacked by people with agendas to remake the Church into their own image[/color]. [/quote]

Not sure about that... people don't change their minds when others complain. They just get mad right back at you. Eventually you end up going your separate ways, each further entrenched in their beliefs.

Liturgies are incredibly beautiful when celebrated properly and joyfully. People don't break from the GIRM just to be rebels. Often, they have good reasons, and are usually reacting to "proper" Masses that have a reputation for being dry and uninspiring. Then they go to the opposite extreme because they've made a false correlation. So, the positive route to making a real change happen (not just a superficial change) is finding a way to show the beauty of a properly celebrated liturgy to the priest and other ministers in your parish. This is more difficult and requires more creativity than complaining, and success definitely isn't guaranteed, but probably much more likely than complaining.

After all, soon as you complain, you become the enemy, and who wants to side with their enemy?

Gotta say, attending Spanish Masses at two different parishes the last two Sundays has only heightened my concern for the Catholic faith among Hispanics. I've seen more abuses in those two Masses than I've seen probably all year in English Masses, and throughout Mass reverence is very minimal. It's always difficult in crowded conditions with many children around, but I saw many things that no pastor should tolerate (like a teenage male EM offering Communion wearing a t-shirt). The one interesting thing is the Spanish translation already includes some of the changes that are coming in English, such as "my fault, my fault, my greatest fault" and they say "and with your spirit" instead of "and also with you." The words in Spanish almost exactly match the Latin. Obviously, more accurate translations to not equate to greater reverence. Go figure.

[Saint Therese]

I respectfully disagree.

[doe-jo]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1649908' date='Sep 7 2008, 10:53 AM']I am on vacation and I went to Mass this morning with my brother in law. It was horrible.
I mean, don't get me wrong, holy Mass is always HOLY, but there lots of abuses.
It was going okay until just after the liturgy of the Word. I seriously had to ask myself if I had somehow missed the rest of Mass because they had some lady come up and read the announcements and Father read a few things and told some jokes. Seriously. Then after that the Liturgy of the Eucharist was started, as if it were two totally separate services. And then, get this: there were [b]SEVENTEEN[/b] extra ordinary eucharistic ministers. That's right [b]SEVENTEEN[/b]. It is a large parish, the largest in the city, but not THAT large. I mean I could expect seventeen at maybe a Papal Mass or something. Right? Also, and this is something that bothers me more than anything else: the containers the extraordinary ministers used to distribute Jesus were made out of glass.
It looked like a dish you might have in your kitchen. All the altar severs were girls. The priest in his homily gave several examples of forgiveness: all the examples were of women. I was asking myself, why didn't they give any examples of men? Everyone held hands during the Our Father (except myself).
I'm not someone that feels that a Mass has to be said a certain way just to so that I might be happy. But it bothers me when there are so many things in one Mass that are clearly abuses, especially the glass "containers" (not ciborium). It makes me sad, really.
I forgot to mention that in the church there is no tabernacle; There is an adjacent Blessed Sacrament chapel.
Any thoughts? Please tell me that its not just me! [/quote]
What you just explained happens in the San Bernardino/Los Angeles area (where I live) all the time and I'm not exaggerating.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='doe-jo' post='1650455' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:06 AM']What you just explained happens in the San Bernardino/Los Angeles area (where I live) all the time and I'm not exaggerating.[/quote]

I really feel for you.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1650454' date='Sep 8 2008, 01:04 AM']I respectfully disagree.[/quote]

Do you have any reasons?

When was the last time you felt compelled to agree with someone when they started complaining to you? We have to put ourselves in the other person's shoes, understand where they are coming from, and what they value in order to be convincing. If what we believe is the Truth, a way can be found to make it appealing to just about anyone except the most stubborn of individuals.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650479' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:26 AM']Do you have any reasons?

When was the last time you felt compelled to agree with someone when they started complaining to you? We have to put ourselves in the other person's shoes, understand where they are coming from, and what they value in order to be convincing. If what we believe is the Truth, a way can be found to make it appealing to just about anyone except the most stubborn of individuals.[/quote]
I do have reasons, but I was trying to avoid a debate.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1650486' date='Sep 8 2008, 01:32 AM']I do have reasons, but I was trying to avoid a debate. [/quote]

Then call it a discussion I'm just curious where you're coming from, and if you know how to approach problems like this effectively, then all the better.

FWIW, I do tend to turn most threads I follow into a debate, but usually I'm just trying to think outside the box and learn more.

[Deb]

I just read the girm last week from the USCCB site and then I read the girm as listed on the Vatican's web site. I was specifically looking for something that addressed the acts of the congregation during the Our Father. It does not say mention anything about holding hands or not holding hands during the Our Father. Our church does it, I don't. I discussed it with my priest. He said it was a strong tradition in that parish, that no one was required to hold hands and that I should just pray on it as to what I want to do. I choose not to hold hands.

As for sacred vessels. It states they should be of precious material and non absorbant. It does not say they cannot be glass. It does say one should take care that they are not easily breakable which one could presume would not include glass then. But, again, not banned.

I do not believe that announcements nor jokes belong between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. I would probably approach the priest and ask him what is up with that. I would not have been happy with that at all. I don't think the Mass you described was full of abuses however. If the consecration was valid, it was a good Mass.

The tabernacle is not required to be in the sanctuary. Ours is not in our church and I have asked that it be returned to the sanctuary in a very detailed survey we were given, with lots of room to comment on every part of the church. We have perpetual adoration though and when Mass goes on, the Blessed Eucharist is returned to the tabernacle which is in the chapel where all daily Masses are celebrated.

I have had problems with little things here and there in my church. However, I go to several other churches for daily Mass or Sunday Mass if I already went to my church on Saturday night and there is not a perfect church out there. I will note that as far as the order of the Mass and the reverence observed in it, we have some incredible churches in the Mpls/St. Paul area. Holy priests and spiritual members.

[StColette]

[quote name='Deb' post='1650584' date='Sep 8 2008, 10:24 AM']I just read the girm last week from the USCCB site and then I read the girm as listed on the
As for sacred vessels. It states they should be of precious material and non absorbant. It does not say they cannot be glass. It does say one should take care that they are not easily breakable which one could presume would not include glass then. But, again, not banned.[/quote]

Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacrament
Redemptionis Sacramentum
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

3. Sacred Vessels

[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.[205]The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,[206]so that honour will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. [b]Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. [/b]This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.[207]


The use of glass is strictly prohibited, because a. glass has pores and thus can be absorbent material and b. glass is very breakable.

[quote]I just read the girm last week from the USCCB site and then I read the girm as listed on the Vatican's web site. I was specifically looking for something that addressed the acts of the congregation during the Our Father. It does not say mention anything about holding hands or not holding hands during the Our Father. Our church does it, I don't. I discussed it with my priest. He said it was a strong tradition in that parish, that no one was required to hold hands and that I should just pray on it as to what I want to do. I choose not to hold hands.[/quote]

The GIRM does not mention neither holding hands nor not holding hands because it's a General Instruction not a detail explanation of how each and every part of the rubics should be followed out. The USCCB spoke out against people holding hands during the Our Father many years ago. I know our Bishop prohibited the practice but many of the parishes continued to do so against the requests of the USCCB and their local Bishop.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1650428' date='Sep 7 2008, 09:29 PM']Thank you for your advice,and generally that is my attitude. However pointing out things that are clearly against the norms and guidelines of the Church is not "complaining". I think if more of us "complained" we might not be in this position- [color="#FF0000"]having our liturgies hijacked by people with agendas to remake the Church into their own image[/color].

Besides, the way we celebrate the liturgy shows what we REALLY believe about our faith. ( Not trying to start a debate!!)[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
and what good does it do to complain here? you should respectfully bring it up to the priest of that parish, and then go up higher in the chain (as respect demands and so do the readings from yesterday's Gospel.)