Guest Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 Whats up, this stament was from my buddy Don Jonh. Well I dont really know him but he seems pretty cool and knows alot about the church. I just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were on this and thought it might turn into a good debate. I really dont know much about Luther, im going to google right now. I do know that Hitler is one of the most evil people to walk this earth and if he ended up in Heaven I would be completly dumbfounded. Although they do say all things are possible with God ? Im not attempting to take Don Jonhns statement out of contex and if you want you can go look at how he said it. Its in the "catholics are better" thread in open mic on page seven. We are basically argueing about wether lutherans are saved or not, and it got argued that since Luther started the lutheran church it resulted in more deaths then hitler caused. So i guess debate, was luther worse then Hitler ?
SpareTime Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1651620' date='Sep 9 2008, 04:45 PM']Whats up, this stament was from my buddy Don Jonh. Well I dont really know him but he seems pretty cool and knows alot about the church. I just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were on this and thought it might turn into a good debate. I really dont know much about Luther, im going to google right now. I do know that Hitler is one of the most evil people to walk this earth and if he ended up in Heaven I would be completly dumbfounded. Although they do say all things are possible with God ? Im not attempting to take Don Jonhns statement out of contex and if you want you can go look at how he said it. Its in the "catholics are better" thread in open mic on page seven. We are basically argueing about wether lutherans are saved or not, and it got argued that since Luther started the lutheran church it resulted in more deaths then hitler caused. So i guess debate, was luther worse then Hitler ?[/quote] It resulted in more deaths than Hitler caused? Are we talking physical or spiritual deaths? Edited September 9, 2008 by SpareTime
Guest Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 Don Johns statement : I certianly don't think Hitler was as bad as Luther, Luther split Christendom and started a 150 years of religous war. Wars in which a far higher proportion of people were killed than the war Hitler started.
princessgianna Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) Luther was actually not to bad of a guy! allow me to explain he was a man of strong principle! He was studying law when he was caught in a thunder storm and he prayed to St. Ann that if he was saved he would became a priest(not a very good reason to make such a big commitment) well he got through it alive so he became a priest. he would be in the confessional and people would came in and ask to be forgiven when he asked them if they were sorry they would say no but that did not matter they bought a indulgence so they did not need to be sorry to be forgiven! which of course you do and indulgences don't work that way (which i ll explain later if you 'd like) When they were refused forgiveness they would get mad! Since Luther was a strong man in principal he saw the corruption with the using Indulgences wrongly and was confused himself so he finally wrote 95 these` IN LATIN (and this is crucial because the Church was so corrupt that many priest did not know Latin they would just say whatever babble nonsense(if they said mass at ALL)) asking all the professors to come and discuss this Indulgences Issue. Somebody grabbed it, translated it from Latin to German and made copies very quickly (Gutenberg press was just invented!!!) and it spread like wild fire! Another point you need to remember is Luther put it on the Church Doors many Protestants often glorify Luther as to what bravely he did by nailing it to the door let me explain this[b] He did nothing unusual![/b] The Church Door was the Church bulletin board all sorts of announcements went on the Church door! Luther AT FIRST was just clearing up confusion! When Rome heard of his complaints about the mis use of Indulgences they were like "yea you are right this is a problem" but unfortunately it was too late! EDIT: I agree that Luther was wrong! VERY WRONG!!! But in the beginning he was actually in the right (IN THE BEGINNING!!!) I do believe he got egotistic and since he so many followers hey why not and it did not help that the Church was so weak and corrupt!!! he lost sight of the Truth and of The True Church!!! Edited September 9, 2008 by princessgianna
princessgianna Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 So to answer your question I can't say! We can't judge but That is a very interesting question!
SpareTime Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1651637' date='Sep 9 2008, 05:06 PM']Don Johns statement : I certianly don't think Hitler was as bad as Luther, Luther split Christendom and started a 150 years of religous war. Wars in which a far higher proportion of people were killed than the war Hitler started.[/quote] Hmmm. More people may have died fighting religious wars, but far as I know, there was not an extermination of a huge portion of Catholics... I could be wrong though. And I think it's logically unsound to say that people dying in wars is the same as the extermination of the defenseless. (Abortion, anyone?) So whether Luther was "worse" than Hitler... I'd say no. Edited September 9, 2008 by SpareTime
Guest Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='princessgianna' post='1651638' date='Sep 9 2008, 06:07 PM']Luther was actually not to bad of a guy! allow me to explain he was a man of strong principle! He was studying law when he was caught in a thunder storm and he prayed to St. Ann that if he was saved he would became a priest(not a very good reason to make such a big commitment) well he got through it alive so he became a priest. he would be in the confessional and people would came in and ask to be forgiven when he asked them if they were sorry they would say no but that did not matter they bought a indulgence so they did not need to be sorry to be forgiven! which of course you do and indulgences don't work that way (which i ll explain later if you 'd like) When they were refused forgiveness they would get mad! Since Luther was a strong man in principal he saw the corruption with the using Indulgences wrongly and was confused himself so he finally wrote 95 these` IN LATIN (and this is crucial because the Church was so corrupt that many priest did not know Latin they would just say whatever babble nonsense(if they said mass at ALL)) asking all the professors to come and discuss this Indulgences Issue. Somebody grabbed it, translated it from Latin to German and made copies very quickly (Gutenberg press was just invented!!!) and it spread like wild fire! Another point you need to remember is Luther put it on the Church Doors many Protestants often glorify Luther as to what bravely he did by nailing it to the door let me explain this[b] He did nothing unusual![/b] The Church Door was the Church bulletin board all sorts of announcements went on the Church door! Luther AT FIRST was just clearing up confusion! When Rome heard of his complaints about the mis use of Indulgences they were like "yea you are right this is a problem" but unfortunately it was too late![/quote] ok, that is also my limited understanding to. I have never thought of him to be an evil man and I also know lutherans who i respect and love and consider my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do know that hitler was a bastard. Im sorry if some dont like the way that sounds but the bible says that if you are not a son of God, you are a bastard and the son of satan. So my next question is, if Don Jonn feels this way, and his makeing statements like this, why does he have a church Militant title next to his name ? No offence Don John, I just think your statements are a little out there. Edited September 9, 2008 by Guest
princessgianna Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 I believe that if one follows God as best as his knowledge lets him and is always willing to learn more about God then I think you are saved but if you know the Truth and still refuse to believe then you aren't so lucky!! I have meant more Christ-like Protestants than Catholics (except Phatmass ) though I believe that the Catholic Church holds the whole Truth!
SpareTime Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1651644' date='Sep 9 2008, 05:11 PM']ok, that is also my limited understanding to. I have never thought of him to be an evil man and I also know lutherans who i respect and love and consider my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do know that hitler was a bastard. Im sorry if some dont like the way that sounds but the bible says that if you are not a son of God, you are a bastard and the son of satan. So my next question is, if Don Jonn feels this way, and his makeing statements like this, why does he have a church Militant title next to his name ? No offence Don John, I just think your statements are a little out there.[/quote] I wondered that too, as the Church certainly doesn't seem to make the statement that there is no such thing as a repentant protestant or no such thing as a protestant who truly loves God. I mean isn't this board supposed to be ecumenical?
Guest Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='SpareTime' post='1651640' date='Sep 9 2008, 06:09 PM']Hmmm. More people may have died fighting religious wars, but far as I know, there was not an extermination of a huge portion of Catholics... I could be wrong though. And I think it's logically unsound to say that people dying in wars is the same as the extermination of the defenseless. (Abortion, anyone?) So whether Luther was "worse" than Hitler... I'd say no.[/quote] ya i dont even see how one could come to this conclusion when they have a church Militant beside their name. Edited September 9, 2008 by Guest
Guest Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 could mabey a mod or someone who knows about how people get these titles explain to me how don jon could have Church Militant by his name when he makes statements like these ?
Guest Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) spare time im pretty sure its ecumenical, mabey the mods havent noticed his commets yet ?? Edited September 9, 2008 by Guest
Lil Red Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 +J.M.J.+ [quote name='Delivery Boy']ya i dont even see how one could come to this conclusion when they have a church Militant beside their name. could mabey a mod or someone who knows about how people get these titles explain to me how don jon could have Church Militant by his name when he makes statements like these ? spare time im pretty sure its ecumenical, mabey the mods havent noticed his commets yet ??[/quote] Don John is a highly educated man, a teacher, and i would guess knows more about the Church, and history than me or you combined. he is a highly respected member of this phorum and has been for years. so please give him the respect that is due, and give him a chance to explain before you go labeling him. thanks.
Seven77 Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 While I don't like the way the thread is calling out a member of phatmass, I'll just say that Hitler is more proximately responsible for the deaths of people than Luther is. Matter of fact, Hitler is directly responsible for those [i]he[/i] had killed. Luther himself didn't order people to be killed.
Noel's angel Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) Their evils are completely different. Anyway, i don't think it is prudent to be 'weighing up' how evil people are. Edited September 9, 2008 by Noel's angel
Guest Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) ok guys im really starting to stuggle here...im not here to try to get a rise out of people...ive been posting since o3 and for the most part ive been a complete idiot...im the first to admit that...but not right now.... im really struggling.....i love God and I want to love the catholic church and what it teaches....Im bombarded in this war everyday....I turn on tbn and im hearing from christians there who say they love GOD ect. ect. ect. Then im hearing programs on there saying that the catholic church is a cult and the false church from revelations.....blah blah blah i think its mostly b.s. but then i get confused....there teaching a rapture, i come here im told there is no rapture.......its just like its overwheliming....im catholic, i want to be cathoic, i believe that is where God wants me.....but it really troubles me sometimes what i hear catholics say.... like don john, when he says things like this it is hurtfull....i have lutheran friends and family who i LOVE and when i hear him say things like this it really upsets me....im sorry about this thread, but again, its not to get a rise or start problems, im just really bothered by some of the things said because they dont sound christian at all.....not one bit... Edited September 9, 2008 by Guest
Lil Red Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 +J.M.J.+ then pm Don John with a link to this thread and wait for his response.
pan!c139 Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 Hitler was by far worse. Luther merely broke away from the Church and started his own religion. He had morals and principle. Hitler, on the other hand, declared that only a certain type of people were human beings, and anyone different than that certain type deserved to die. All hell broke loose on earth because of Hitler. He was evil and malicious. Luther was neither evil nor malicious.
IcePrincessKRS Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1651709' date='Sep 9 2008, 08:13 PM']+J.M.J.+ then pm Don John with a link to this thread and wait for his response. [/quote] Agreed. I understand that some people may be having some struggles here, and it's good that you would seek clarification. Like Red said, DJ is a highly educated man and (unless my brain completely fails me) history is his field. I am sure he had good reason for what he said. Also, as some people may not be aware, DJ's style is what we have jokingly referred to in the past as the "hammer over the head method." If something he says strikes you as a little harsh try breaking down what he says and look at the basic facts, or get him to explain his reasons for saying what he says before questioning why he's Church Militant. Believe me, he earned the tag.
Guest Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Lil Red' post='1651687' date='Sep 9 2008, 06:55 PM']+J.M.J.+ Don John is a highly educated man, a teacher, and i would guess knows more about the Church, and history than me or you combined. he is a highly respected member of this phorum and has been for years. so please give him the respect that is due, and give him a chance to explain before you go labeling him. thanks.[/quote] no doubt lil red i agree with you. read my about me in my profile. i state right there i know very little about the history of the church, popes, and saints. one thing i do know though is that we are saved by faith through christ, not by works, in case anyone should boast. ( not takeing away from the sacraments, if one has real faith works will follow) and i do respect don john and i told him today in the catholics are better thread that he is way better and way more knowlegable catholic then i could ever dream to be. but at the same time when he says things like no such thing as a repentent protesant that loves god or that luther was worst then hitler, i gotta throw up my red flag. and when you add that he is church militant i gotta thow it up again. but i do respect what you said and even agree with what you said. i probally did come off to aggressive, so for that im sorry. Edited September 9, 2008 by Guest
Recommended Posts