Lutheran And Non Demonintaional Christians Will Acheive Salvation

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652645' date='Sep 10 2008, 07:53 PM']haha its an art[/quote]

yep. and just so you know I don't believe what I believe without real-life ramifications. Outside of my immediate family (parents and siblings) all of my family is Protestant either practicing or not. My grandfather died a couple years ago and had the funeral in his Lutheran church. So it does hit close to home. I'm not just saying things to blow smoke .

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1652697' date='Sep 10 2008, 08:52 PM'] yep. and just so you know I don't believe what I believe without real-life ramifications. Outside of my immediate family (parents and siblings) all of my family is Protestant either practicing or not. My grandfather died a couple years ago and had the funeral in his Lutheran church. So it does hit close to home. I'm not just saying things to blow smoke .[/quote]
Aye, and my family is precisely the same, except that I have no siblings, and both of my parents are protestant.

[Guest]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1652697' date='Sep 10 2008, 09:52 PM'] yep. and just so you know I don't believe what I believe without real-life ramifications. Outside of my immediate family (parents and siblings) all of my family is Protestant either practicing or not. My grandfather died a couple years ago and had the funeral in his Lutheran church. So it does hit close to home. I'm not just saying things to blow smoke .[/quote]

For sure, and you can hope confidently for their salvation through their faith and love for the lord.

[Guest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1652700' date='Sep 10 2008, 09:54 PM']Aye, and my family is precisely the same, except that I have no siblings, and both of my parents are protestant.[/quote]

thats pretty cool you are cathoilc, how old are you ?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652703' date='Sep 10 2008, 08:54 PM']For sure, and you can hope confidently for their salvation through their faith and love for the lord.[/quote]

we'll just have to agree to disagree unfortunately

[Guest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1652700' date='Sep 10 2008, 08:54 PM']Aye, and my family is precisely the same, except that I have no siblings, and both of my parents are protestant.[/quote]

I just went to your profile and seen you're 16. You must really be on fire for God. If you dont mind me asking how did you come to your cathlolic faith with haveing two parents that are protestants? Thats pretty cool.

[Guest]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1652712' date='Sep 10 2008, 08:58 PM']we'll just have to agree to disagree unfortunately [/quote]

lol i guess ??
so you have no hope for them ??

[Guest]

Are they baptised ??
Because if they are i really dont see how you can make a case.

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." -CCC, paragraph 818

[pan!c139]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652703' date='Sep 10 2008, 07:54 PM']For sure, and you can hope confidently for their salvation through their faith and love for the lord.[/quote]

"Man is not saved by faith alone..." (James 2:24)

[Guest]

[quote name='pan!c139' post='1652719' date='Sep 10 2008, 09:04 PM']"Man is not saved by faith alone..." (James 2:24)[/quote]

nope, I believe love does produce works though.
faith alone is dead, agreed.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[pan!c139]

[Guest]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1652712' date='Sep 10 2008, 08:58 PM']we'll just have to agree to disagree unfortunately [/quote]

wether or not they are saved is up for debate (which we shouldnt do) but they do deserve the right to be called christians and be shown respect and affection.

i dont like the once saved always saved either. although i do believe with faith you probally will be saved although you might have a miserable time in purgatory for a zillion years.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[pan!c139]

Definitely. I have a lot of friends who are Christian. They are our separated bretheren.

[Nihil Obstat]

Um... I have to admit, reading this thread and the debate on the other one, I feel very apprehensive and tentative about giving my own understanding here, but I feel drawn to try to get my point across.
The way I interpret the Church teaching on salvation outside the Church is this:

All salvation comes through the Church. Fact. It's been said multiple times.
The way I understand, however, this is referring not strictly to the Church as an earthly institution. All salvation comes through the Church as a universal, established-by-God community. We can see the Church as wider than a human perspective.
Therefore we can legitimately believe, as the CCC tells us, that those who do not identify as Catholic can be salved.
So the question that Don John brought up of whether this is even possible today... I think it is.
From what I read of Don John's comments (and my deepest apologies if I'm putting words into your mouth) is that those who have heard of the Church but do not join no longer have invincible ignorance, and are therefore rejecting the Church, excluding themselves from salvation.
I disagree with this though, sort of. The way I see it, it rests not in knowledge, but understanding, which we all know is a pretty big distinction.
A lot of people are brought up Protestant, or Jewish and what have you, and they will be raised being told constantly that their religion is correct and Catholicism is not. Personally, I don't blame them for not coming to the Church just from hearing a bit about it. The trick is in understanding it.
When you actually understand where the Catholic Church comes from, it's pretty hard to call it false. Very very hard, in my opinion.

My two cents.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652714' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:00 PM']I just went to your profile and seen you're 16. You must really be on fire for God. If you dont mind me asking how did you come to your cathlolic faith with haveing two parents that are protestants? Thats pretty cool. [/quote]
Thanks DB.
It was a matter of God revealing me the Truth and Beauty of His Church through various people and situations, including a Catholic grandmother, a group of amazing sisters, a great parish community, and for the first time, being able to see Christ and His love reflected in others - something that was only revealed to me once I began my two-year journey home. It was quite the journey (and it didn't come easily - my mother butted heads so often that our skulls began to fuse ), but it's certainly a tale for another thread.

[Guest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1652742' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:15 PM']Um... I have to admit, reading this thread and the debate on the other one, I feel very apprehensive and tentative about giving my own understanding here, but I feel drawn to try to get my point across.
The way I interpret the Church teaching on salvation outside the Church is this:

All salvation comes through the Church. Fact. It's been said multiple times.
The way I understand, however, this is referring not strictly to the Church as an earthly institution. All salvation comes through the Church as a universal, established-by-God community. We can see the Church as wider than a human perspective.
Therefore we can legitimately believe, as the CCC tells us, that those who do not identify as Catholic can be salved.
So the question that Don John brought up of whether this is even possible today... I think it is.
From what I read of Don John's comments (and my deepest apologies if I'm putting words into your mouth) is that those who have heard of the Church but do not join no longer have invincible ignorance, and are therefore rejecting the Church, excluding themselves from salvation.
I disagree with this though, sort of. The way I see it, it rests not in knowledge, but understanding, which we all know is a pretty big distinction.
A lot of people are brought up Protestant, or Jewish and what have you, and they will be raised being told constantly that their religion is correct and Catholicism is not. Personally, I don't blame them for not coming to the Church just from hearing a bit about it. The trick is in understanding it.
When you actually understand where the Catholic Church comes from, it's pretty hard to call it false. Very very hard, in my opinion.

My two cents. [/quote]

Veryyyyyyyyyy hard. I tried for awhile in my day to day life and even on here. Dust gave me a i dont rep the pope title. I had a very hard time accepting that I would not be able to find salvation outside of the catholic church. And now through phatmass and the holy spirt im sold on the authenticity of the catholic church and am also responsible in a more real way then I ever was. I am now aware of mortal sin and what it can do to my spirtual life.

I appreciate what you say about knowledge and understanding being 2 very different things. I apprecaite Lousiville Fan for posting the document I have pasted on this thread in the other thread in open mic. Because it does tell us that our seperated brothers and sisters are indeed brothers and sisters in Christ and they deserve our love and respet. God is good and just. How lucky humans are for that.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1652746' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:18 PM']Thanks DB.
It was a matter of God revealing me the Truth and Beauty of His Church through various people and situations, including a Catholic grandmother, a group of amazing sisters, a great parish community, and for the first time, being able to see Christ and His love reflected in others - something that was only revealed to me once I began my two-year journey home. It was quite the journey (and it didn't come easily - my mother butted heads so often that our skulls began to fuse ), but it's certainly a tale for another thread.[/quote]

let me know when you post it cause im dieing to read it.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652752' date='Sep 10 2008, 09:21 PM']Veryyyyyyyyyy hard. I tried for awhile in my day to day life and even on here. Dust gave me a i dont rep the pope title. I had a very hard time accepting that I would not be able to find salvation outside of the catholic church. And now through phatmass and the holy spirt im sold on the authenticity of the catholic church and am also responsible in a more real way then I ever was. I am now aware of mortal sin and what it can do to my spirtual life.

I appreciate what you say about knowledge and understanding being 2 very different things. I apprecaite Lousiville Fan for posting the document I have pasted on this thread in the other thread in open mic. Because it does tell us that our seperated brothers and sisters are indeed brothers and sisters in Christ and they deserve our love and respet. God is good and just. How lucky humans are for that.[/quote]
Yes.
I've come to the sincere belief lately that if one is willing to believe, and if one [b]truly[/b] understands the motivations and meanings and doctrines of the Church, that they will see that it is the answer, that it is truly God's Church. Starting as simply as proving the founding of the Church, which as you all know is pretty clear, it just... flows into place. The beauty and grandeur is aw-inspiring. Enormous diversity within the Church, in terms of race and tradition... such understanding...

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652715' date='Sep 10 2008, 11:01 PM']lol i guess ??
so you have no hope for them ??[/quote]

Perhaps he means he has hope but not confidence?

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652718' date='Sep 10 2008, 11:03 PM']Are they baptised ??
Because if they are i really dont see how you can make a case.

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." -CCC, paragraph 818[/quote]

They deserve to be called Christians, yes, but we also have to remember that that does not guarantee salvation. I hope that they do achieve it, but there is no way we can know for certain.

When we discuss understanding, knowledge, and belief regarding our separated brethren I think we must also recognize that there are a couple types of ignorance that can come into play: willful (vincible) and invincible. If they are willfully ignorant then the weight of burden rests upon their shoulders. If they aren't being willfully ignorant then I think that there is indeed good hope for their salvation. How often we encounter invincible ignorance versus vincible is a whole different argument.... That I cannot say. I know there are people out there who are led one way their whole lives and sincerely believe Catholics are all the bad things people say about us, but I think at least as often if not more so there are those who have heard the Truth and choose to dismiss the Church. They don't want to change so they turn their backs (I've seen it happen). Our tendency to selfishness is a powerful vice and part of why so many turn away; look at all the "Catholics" who are in favor of abortion and contraceptives.

ETA: my point in composing this post is to point out that the thread title isn't entirely accurate. We cannot say that anyone [b]will[/b] achieve salvation. We can only hope that they [b]might[/b] achieve it. The CCC quote about non-Catholic Christians being our brothers and sisters in Christ is a good one, but it should not be confused or misinterpreted to say that they are going to heaven with certainty.

[Guest]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1652787' date='Sep 10 2008, 11:08 PM']Perhaps he means he has hope but not confidence?



They deserve to be called Christians, yes, but we also have to remember that that does not guarantee salvation. I hope that they do achieve it, but there is no way we can know for certain.

When we discuss understanding, knowledge, and belief regarding our separated brethren I think we must also recognize that there are a couple types of ignorance that can come into play: willful (vincible) and invincible. If they are willfully ignorant then the weight of burden rests upon their shoulders. If they aren't being willfully ignorant then I think that there is indeed good hope for their salvation. How often we encounter invincible ignorance versus vincible is a whole different argument.... That I cannot say. I know there are people out there who are led one way their whole lives and sincerely believe Catholics are all the bad things people say about us, but I think at least as often if not more so there are those who have heard the Truth and choose to dismiss the Church. They don't want to change so they turn their backs (I've seen it happen). Our tendency to selfishness is a powerful vice and part of why so many turn away; look at all the "Catholics" who are in favor of abortion and contraceptives.

ETA: my point in composing this post is to point out that the thread title isn't entirely accurate. We cannot say that anyone [b]will[/b] achieve salvation. We can only hope that they [b]might[/b] achieve it. The CCC quote about non-Catholic Christians being our brothers and sisters in Christ is a good one, but it should not be confused or misinterpreted to say that they are going to heaven with certainty.[/quote]

Agreed, thats why I said "as long as they stay in a loveing, repentent, faithfull relationship with Christ and follow him to the best of their ability."

No one knows anyones fate. But they do deserve the same hope just as catholics do. They should not be assumed unrepentent or unworthy.

Because if were assuming about a professing christian then were judgeing which means we are going to be judged also.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest