Just A General Question...

[Aloysius]

yeah, and we can never assume INVINCIBLE ignorance. only God knows how culpable we are for our own ignorance, we could never judge someone invincibly ignorant, we must teach them cuz ignorance is just an extraordinary way God shows mercy and should never be presumed

[ilovechrist]

well rebirth, its obvious you have a lot of help in here.. a LOT!
my advice isn't needed too much... but check out Rock For Life's website on anything abortion, cuz they sure have that subject covered!

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]anyway, excommunication does not equal damning someone to hell, you seemed at least implying that when you said, but i think God would have mercy...

excommunication means they cannot receive the sacraments, they are essentially no longer Catholic, [/quote]

That right there is a huge contradiction. If excommunication makes you no longer a Catholic, then you pretty much ARE damned to Hell (Outside the Church no salvation). That is why if one is excommunicated, he cannot receive a Catholic burial (neither can one who is in a state of public mortal sin nor one who kills himself nor one who is not Catholic). God bless.

Edited April 10, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[cmotherofpirl]

Excommunication does not kick you out of the Churrch. It is a wake-up call to repent of your sin. As soon as you repent you can come back. You are still a Catholic.

If you read Scripture Paul says to have nothing to do with such people.

[CatholicCrusader]

Actually...excommunication is separation from the Church completely (St. Thomas Aquinas in Second Part of the Second Part, Question 11, Article 3, in Suma states that a heretic should be separated from the Church by excommunication then separated from the world by death, likening to two to one another). Therefore, just as death completely severs one from the world, so also does excommunication sever one from the Church (like I said, those who are excommunicated are not permitted Catholic burial). God bless.

[Adeodatus]

[quote] Actually...excommunication is separation from the Church completely (St. Thomas Aquinas in Second Part of the Second Part, Question 11, Article 3, in Suma states that a heretic should be separated from the Church by excommunication then separated from the world by death, likening to two to one another). [/quote]

On the contrary, Cmom is right. CatholicCrusader, this is a misreading of St Thomas.

Baptism makes you a member of Christ's Body the Church, and excommunication is separation ('ex-') of communion ('communication') from the Church's sacraments----not a separation from the Church herself. A person is only excommunicated with a view to saving them (as St Paul himself says, 'deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus' [1 Corinthians 5.5]).

Nothing but death can [b]utterly[/b] separate you from the Church. Heresy and schism are terrible acts, but there is still hope for repentance and reconciliation to Christ's holy Church. Only death can separate the unrepentant for eternity, as Scripture says, 'after death comes judgement' (Hebrews 9.27).

St Thomas does [b]not[/b] say that a heretic [b]should[/b] be separated by death in addition to his heresy. He says that heresy rightly deserves such separation, but only death is definitive. There still remains the chance for repentance while the sinner lives. Rather he holds out the hope for their restoration----just look at the [i]very next article[/i], Article 4 of Question 11 of the Secunda Secundae of Aquinas's Summa Theologiae.

[at0m1c]

wait a minute! Isn't excommunication removed upon death?