Atheism

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1661209' date='Sep 22 2008, 09:33 PM']I disagree. I think a lot can be benefited from talking with an atheist. I am not trying to explain my proofs for the existence of God but want to know how an atheist thinks, better understand what it is that led that person to disbelieving in God.

The reason I am asking to talk to atheists or former atheists is to make sure I don't spread misconceptions.[/quote]

Oh I see, that's quite commendable actually. I guess I was thinking of debates and such as that's pretty much all you see going on between atheists and theists. And those often degenerate fast.

Well I'm here if you need something, though I'm not known for great conversation skills.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1661200' date='Sep 22 2008, 05:19 PM']I agree with that. However, most atheists don't believe that God does not exist.[/quote]

What's an atheist then?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1661421' date='Sep 23 2008, 01:13 AM']
What's an atheist then?[/quote]

Someone who doesn't believe that God exists.

[Theologian in Training]

Were you always an atheist? If not, what led you to disbelieve in God?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][quote name='Semalsia' post='1661200' date='Sep 22 2008, 05:19 PM']However, most atheists [u][b]don't[/b][/u] believe that God does [b][u]not[/u][/b] exist.[/quote][quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1661421' date='Sep 22 2008, 09:13 PM']What's an atheist then?[/quote][/quote]I think the previous user may of been asking if your use of the double negative was intentional? Since this statement might lead someone to think some atheists may believe in God. [i]Thus the confusion...[/i]

Edited September 23, 2008 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1661533' date='Sep 22 2008, 09:07 PM']I think the previous user may of been asking if your use of the double negative was intentional? Since this statement might lead someone to think some atheists may believe in God. [i]Thus the confusion...[/i][/quote]
I'm still confused...
If one doesn't believe that something does not exist...wouldn't that mean that that one believes something exists?
Perhaps it's been a longer day than it seems...

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1661509' date='Sep 23 2008, 01:54 AM']Were you always an atheist? If not, what led you to disbelieve in God?[/quote]

I have never actively believed in God. Maybe because religion wasn't talked about at home. I got these 'what if there is a god' moments when I was younger and tried praying couple of times. I guess I gave it up since nothing happened. I still occasionally wonder, but that's about it. When I look at the world or the people in it, I can't see God anywhere in there. In fact everything looks just like if there was no God (the chaos, injustice, suffering, etc).

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1661547' date='Sep 23 2008, 02:21 AM'][quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1661533' date='Sep 23 2008, 02:07 AM']
I think the previous user may of been asking if your use of the double negative was intentional? Since this statement might lead someone to think some atheists may believe in God. [i]Thus the confusion...[/i][/quote]
I'm still confused...
If one doesn't believe that something does not exist...wouldn't that mean that that one believes something exists?
Perhaps it's been a longer day than it seems...
[/quote]

Yes, the double negative was intentional. I meant that they do not necessarily hold the belief that there is no God. Point being that saying "atheists believe there is no God" is wrong as they might simply not know if God exists or not.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]Atheism[/b] - Tuesday, September 23, 2008 AD
[u]Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism[/u]. It is also defined more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism, including the simple absence of belief in deities.

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism and naturalism, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere; and some religions, such as Jainism and Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god.

The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion. With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism[/url][/quote][quote][b]Agnosticism[/b] - Tuesday, September 23, 2008 AD
Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, gods, deities, or even ultimate reality — [u]is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove[/u].

Demographic research services normally list agnostics in the same category as atheists and non-religious people, using 'agnostic' in the sense of 'noncommittal'. However, this can be misleading given the existence of agnostic theists, who identify themselves as both agnostics in the original sense and followers of a particular religion.

Philosophers and thinkers who have written about agnosticism include Thomas Henry Huxley, Robert G. Ingersoll, and Bertrand Russell. Religious scholars who wrote about agnosticism are Peter Kreeft, Blaise Pascal and Joseph Ratzinger, later elected as Pope Benedict XVI.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism[/url][/quote][quote][b]Deism[/b] - Tuesday, September 23, 2008 AD
[u]Deism is the theistic belief that a supreme God exists and created the physical universe, but shall not intervene in its normal operation[/u]. It is related to a religious philosophy and movement that claims to derive the existence and nature of God from reason. It takes no position on what God may do outside the universe. That is in contrast to fideism which is found in many forms of Christianity, Islamic and Judaic teachings, which hold that religion relies on revelation in sacred scriptures or the testimony of other people as well as reasoning.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not intervene with the affairs of human life and the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God's greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability to reason.

Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in the United Kingdom, France and the United States, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one god. Initially it did not form any congregations, but in time deism led to the development of other religious groups, such as Unitarianism, which later developed into Unitarian Universalism. It continues to this day in the form of classical deism and modern deism.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism[/url][/quote]To assume that agnostics and deists are “[i]atheists[/i]” I would personally consider an overly broad generalization and rash assumption. Likewise, it leaves no definition to the different kinds and intensities of atheism. There are likewise different forms, kinds, and intensities in agnosticism and deism. Personally I find it deceptive when polls report atheists, agnostics, deists, and simply non-religious people are grouped together the broad umbrella of atheism.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1661720' date='Sep 23 2008, 09:33 AM']To assume that agnostics and deists are “[i]atheists[/i]” I would personally consider an overly broad generalization and rash assumption. Likewise, it leaves no definition to the different kinds and intensities of atheism. There are likewise different forms, kinds, and intensities in agnosticism and deism. Personally I find it deceptive when polls report atheists, agnostics, deists, and simply non-religious people are grouped together the broad umbrella of atheism.[/quote]

The wikipedia article you quoted agrees with what I said about atheism. I don't know if that [i]should[/i] be the definition of atheism or not, but that's how it is in the common usage. And that's how people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins (Theologian in Training mentioned them) use the word. Neither claim to be able to disprove God's existence and would admit that it's possible, they just think it's unlikely. Though I have not actually read any of their books, just seen interviews of them saying something like this.

I don't even like to use the word myself, because of these semantic troubles it gets you into. If you insist on using atheism to mean a positive belief that there is no God, then when you talk to an atheist you'll risk getting laughed at for not knowing what atheism is. I guess I'd suggest instead of assuming you know the person from a label, you'd actually start by asking what his/her views are. I'm not sure there has to be a separate word for every possible nuance imaginable.

[Theologian in Training]

OK then, for the sake of clarification, what is it you would say you believe?

Also, in Sam Harris' book "Letter to a Christian Nation," he admits that one person is right and one person is wrong and accepts the consequences if he is wrong. However, he uses this as a justification to prove that indeed he is right. So, he does not necessarily subscribe to the maybe there is God theory.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1661787' date='Sep 23 2008, 02:59 PM']OK then, for the sake of clarification, what is it you would say you believe?[/quote]

I believe in a objective truth. The hard part is in figuring what the truth is. On a purely philosophical level I'll admit that it's possible God exists. And at the same time I can't see God anywhere, so I'll have to assume that there isn't one.

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1661787' date='Sep 23 2008, 02:59 PM']Also, in Sam Harris' book "Letter to a Christian Nation," he admits that one person is right and one person is wrong and accepts the consequences if he is wrong. However, he uses this as a justification to prove that indeed he is right. So, he does not necessarily subscribe to the maybe there is God theory.[/quote]

Oh alright. That was the impression I had about him, but maybe you know better.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1661766' date='Sep 23 2008, 10:14 AM']I don't even like to use the word myself, because of these semantic troubles it gets you into. If you insist on using atheism to mean a positive belief that there is no God, then when you talk to an atheist you'll risk getting laughed at for not knowing what atheism is. I guess I'd suggest instead of assuming you know the person from a label, you'd actually start by asking what his/her views are. I'm not sure there has to be a separate word for every possible nuance imaginable.[/quote]
Oh, I guess that's my fault then. I tend to go by strict definitions of words. So when I think of an A-theist (non-Godbeliever), I think of someone who doesn't believe in God. I don't lump deists, agnostics, and so forth in that category, for they acknowledge the presence or at least possibility of a god.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1661929' date='Sep 23 2008, 05:00 PM']I believe in a objective truth. The hard part is in figuring what the truth is. On a purely philosophical level I'll admit that it's possible God exists. And at the same time I can't see God anywhere, so I'll have to assume that there isn't one.



Oh alright. That was the impression I had about him, but maybe you know better.[/quote]

So then, because you don't see Him you conclude that He does not exist? Is that the only reason for your disbelief or are there other factors as well?

Also, based on my research and what I have read from them, most atheists hold the belief that one's default position should be the non-existence of God and it is the believers job to make that person believe. Do you subscribe to the same idea or do you think something different?

Lastly, do you believe in a soul?

[Balthazor]

Come visit me I am living in one of the most Atheist countries in the world. The reason for atheism?

Forced atheism through communism is one. But the biggest reason I extract is that they are tired of the years of religious power struggles.

A lot of them though really don't beleive in God because Beleif in God would mean that they would have to alter the lifestyle of sex, drugs and alcohol and many are more willing to keep this, than gain God. The culture of pre-marital realtions here is stronger than anywhere else I have been. People plan for children outside of marriage here. It is kind of like bizarro world.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Balthazor

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1662193' date='Sep 24 2008, 01:45 AM']So then, because you don't see Him you conclude that He does not exist? Is that the only reason for your disbelief or are there other factors as well?[/quote]

That's the reason.

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1662193' date='Sep 24 2008, 01:45 AM']Also, based on my research and what I have read from them, most atheists hold the belief that one's default position should be the non-existence of God and it is the believers job to make that person believe. Do you subscribe to the same idea or do you think something different?[/quote]

I'd agree with that. If I look into a fridge and see no cake in there, then my position should be that there is no cake. And obviously not that there [i]is[/i] cake there. If someone is saying there's cake in the fridge, then that person should then show me the cake or I'm not going to believe it.

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1662193' date='Sep 24 2008, 01:45 AM']Lastly, do you believe in a soul?[/quote]

No, I don't. No one has ever shown that we have a soul.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1662057' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:10 PM']Oh, I guess that's my fault then. I tend to go by strict definitions of words. So when I think of an A-theist (non-Godbeliever), I think of someone who doesn't believe in God. I don't lump deists, agnostics, and so forth in that category, for they acknowledge the presence or at least possibility of a god.[/quote]

I think you'll find both definitions of atheism. One that says that it's a belief that there is no God and another saying lack of belief in God.

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1662690' date='Sep 24 2008, 04:21 PM']A lot of them though really don't beleive in God because Beleif in God would mean that they would have to alter the lifestyle of sex, drugs and alcohol and many are more willing to keep this, than gain God.[/quote]

But couldn't they just believe in God that allowed them to do what they wanted? There's probably even plenty of christian churches that allow all those things.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1662690' date='Sep 24 2008, 11:21 AM']Come visit me I am living in one of the most Atheist countries in the world. The reason for atheism?

Forced atheism through communism is one. But the biggest reason I extract is that they are tired of the years of religious power struggles.

A lot of them though really don't beleive in God because Beleif in God would mean that they would have to alter the lifestyle of sex, drugs and alcohol and many are more willing to keep this, than gain God. The culture of pre-marital realtions here is stronger than anywhere else I have been. People plan for children outside of marriage here. It is kind of like bizarro world.[/quote]

That's a pretty shallow interpretation. There are more christians who engage in things like sex, drugs and alcohol then there are that don't. It's easier to believe in god and rationalise a sinful lifestyle than it is to deny the existence of god completely. Best of both worlds, right? There are also many atheists that live more "virtuous" lifestyles than dedicated Catholics. It might not consist of superficial things like confession and penance, but their desire to be good, moral and virtuous is as strong as any Catholic. Not me though.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1663538' date='Sep 25 2008, 02:03 PM']Not me though.[/quote]
Well no.... of course not. Thanks for clarifying.

[ardillacid]

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/blink822/th_puker.gif[/img]

Edited September 25, 2008 by notardillacid

[Winchester]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1662960' date='Sep 24 2008, 05:42 PM']I'd agree with that. If I look into a fridge and see no cake in there, then my position should be that there is no cake. And obviously not that there [i]is[/i] cake there. If someone is saying there's cake in the fridge, then that person should then show me the cake or I'm not going to believe it.[/quote]
It is in the nature of cake to be seen. Poor analogy.

The default position of humanity does not, historically, seem to be atheism.