Atheism

[desertwoman]

Good topic, and good conversation. Very civil and mature. I wish more can be this way.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1665176' date='Sep 27 2008, 04:11 PM']You seem to have missed my point. The analogy wasn't between the nature of God and the nature of cake, but between my positions on their existence. Furthermore, the analogy was meant as an explanation of my thinking process which stays the same whether the question is about cake or God.[/quote]
If you deny everything but what you perceive, you are a solipsist, not an atheist.


[quote]Why? Are you saying those two passages you quoted are somehow contradictory?[/quote]
I'll drop this. I was going in a wrong direction.
Sorry.

[quote]Historical prevalence can be used to show whether something has utility, but that has nothing to do with whether we should actually do it or not. Murder has utility, but it is immoral. Neither does it show us what is true and what isn't. Belief in astrology is prevalent and yet it is false.

Your claim that atheists have no morality is such a ridiculous and clearly false statement.[/quote]
I has something to do with figuring out whether or not an action would have desired consequences. Utility is part of the decision to undertake many actions. I cannot agree that it has nothing to do with whether or not we should do it. I've used history to make many decisions. I am not, however, a historicist.

I don't claim that atheists have no morality. Merely that there is no morality if atheists are correct. There are personal codes and social contracts, but nothing is objectively immoral. Do you believe morality has existence outside of man and the perceptions of man? [i]Why [/i] is murder immoral?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1665799' date='Sep 28 2008, 02:47 PM']If you deny everything but what you perceive, you are a solipsist, not an atheist.[/quote]

That's not solipsism.

And a solipsist can be an atheist.


[quote]I has something to do with figuring out whether or not an action would have desired consequences. Utility is part of the decision to undertake many actions. I cannot agree that it has nothing to do with whether or not we should do it. I've used history to make many decisions. I am not, however, a historicist.[/quote]

Sure.

[quote]I don't claim that atheists have no morality. Merely that there is no morality if atheists are correct.[/quote]
What you conceive as morality does not exist.

[quote]There are personal codes and social contracts, but nothing is objectively immoral. Do you believe morality has existence outside of man and the perceptions of man? [i]Why [/i] is murder immoral?[/quote]

You are correct here.

It is a very sad conclusion of atheism

Edited September 28, 2008 by Hassan

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1665803' date='Sep 28 2008, 03:51 PM']That's not solipsism.

And a solipsist can be an atheist.[/quote]
Effectively, it is solispsism.

Solipsists [i]must [/i] be atheists.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1665836' date='Sep 28 2008, 04:00 PM']Effectively, it is solispsism.

Solipsists [i]must [/i] be atheists.[/quote]
With all due respect, and I mean that, I think you are confused. about the definition of Solipsism
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism[/url]

There is absolutly not necessary link between Atheism and Solipsism.

[Winchester]

I disagree. If we deny the ability to know anything outside our minds, we cannot know there is a god. I will admit one could claim agnosticism, so my oringal statement is amended to admit agnosticism.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1665847' date='Sep 28 2008, 05:32 PM']I disagree. If we deny the ability to know anything outside our minds, we cannot know there is a god. I will admit one could claim agnosticism, so my oringal statement is amended to admit agnosticism.[/quote]


You do not "know" there is a God in a sense of haveing objectiably verifiable conclusive proof, yet you are not an atheist

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1665850' date='Sep 28 2008, 05:44 PM']You do not "know" there is a God in a sense of haveing objectiably verifiable conclusive proof, yet you are not an atheist[/quote]
I can apprehend that knowledge in a way a solipsist rejects. My view of knowledge is different from that of a solipsist. Solipsists reject the ability to know even that which is objectively verifiable. Faith in God don't stand a chance in that arena.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1665854' date='Sep 28 2008, 05:50 PM']I can apprehend that knowledge in a way a solipsist rejects. My view of knowledge is different from that of a solipsist. Solipsists reject the ability to know even that which is objectively verifiable. Faith in God don't stand a chance in that arena.[/quote]


Only if you conflate "faith" in x with "knoledge" of x (in the sense I referenced)