Father

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
3/12 - Second Friday of Lent

For what it's worth (which may be very little), I'd like to look at human fatherhood compared with the Fatherhood of God. If I were to become a biological father of children, I would be hard-pressed to tell my child to leave my home - in fact, I don't know if I could do it. However, my fatherhood is a reflection of the Fatherhood of God, and it's an imperfect reflection. God's Fatherhood doesn't reflect mine (i.e. I wouldn't kick my kid out; God's a Father like me; therefore, God wouldn't refuse His children into Heaven).

Also, if my kid wanted nothing more than to be out of my presence altogether, I don't know what I would do. However, I know what God would do and does - God allows us to remain out of His presence for eternity if we so choose. This is Hell. No soul is sent to Hell; they all choose to go. St. Thomas tells us that if a soul in Hell repented of his sins for the slightest instant of time, they'd be admitted into the glory of Heaven. However, repentance after death isn't possible - but that's another discussion. Pax.

[PedroX]

Dairy Girl,

There are several nuances to your original question. For example what do you mean by "out of your house"? Does this mean not living there, but welcome to visit? Does it mean no visits in the home, but welcome to meet at a neutral space? These are important questions, that also reflect on the nature of God.

A parent has every right to say to a grown child "If you want to live here, you must live by my rules". However, informing your child that they are no longer free to live in your house does not imply cutting off all ties. I am welcome to visit my parents any time I choose, but I would not choose to live by their rules, so I am not welcome to move back in. (plus, I'm 30!)

Likewise, we can not enter into the presence of God with sin staining our hearts. We must confess that sin with a repentant heart before we have that access again.

Does that make sense?

peace...

[ironmonk]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 11 2004, 10:56 PM'] I agree that they are not saved if they sin in that they are living lies but...



Does that mean that souls in hell are not children of God? What makes one a child of God?

Would you Ironmonk? [/quote]
Who is a child of God?


[b]1 John 3:2[/b]
Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed 2 we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
[b]3 [/b]Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure.
[b]4 [/b]Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
[b]5 [/b]You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
[b]6 [/b]No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him.
[b]7 [/b]Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous.
[b]8 [/b]Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil.
[b]9 [/b]No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.
[b]10 [/b]In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.


Souls in hell are not children of God... their father is the father of lies.

If you would actually read the bible from St. Matt through the Apocalypse, and continue reading it, you would grow in a better understanding. If you coupled that will studying of what the first Christians wrote, your knowledge would grow by leaps and bounds.

If you continue in with what you think based on philosophical theories which you have, you will remain lost and illogical in your conclusions of things about God.

You need a sound basis of Scripture before you can try to debate Christianity. Scripture is full of Catholic teaching. The key to knowing it is to look at all the verses and sections that cover a topic, and you should see a clear Catholic teaching. No other church teaches what the Catholic Church and the Bible teaches. Papal Authority, Eucharist, Forgiveness of Sins, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Baptism, Holy Unction, purgatory, etc...

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Carrie]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 12 2004, 02:09 PM'] Who is a child of God?


[b]1 John 3:2[/b]
Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed 2 we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
[b]3 [/b]Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure.
[b]4 [/b]Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
[b]5 [/b]You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
[b]6 [/b]No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him.
[b]7 [/b]Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous.
[b]8 [/b]Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil.
[b]9 [/b]No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.
[b]10 [/b]In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.


Souls in hell are not children of God... their father is the father of lies.

If you would actually read the bible from St. Matt through the Apocalypse, and continue reading it, you would grow in a better understanding. If you coupled that will studying of what the first Christians wrote, your knowledge would grow by leaps and bounds.

If you continue in with what you think based on philosophical theories which you have, you will remain lost and illogical in your conclusions of things about God.

You need a sound basis of Scripture before you can try to debate Christianity. Scripture is full of Catholic teaching. The key to knowing it is to look at all the verses and sections that cover a topic, and you should see a clear Catholic teaching. No other church teaches what the Catholic Church and the Bible teaches. Papal Authority, Eucharist, Forgiveness of Sins, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Baptism, Holy Unction, purgatory, etc...

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
excellent post!

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Mar 11 2004, 09:28 PM'] so: if we're playin with this metaphor, the only condition i would have to throw my kid out of the house is if he was trying to destroy and currupt the souls of my other children. [/quote]
agreed. if one of my children tried to corrupt the others, i would have to draw the line right there.

you still love the kid you kick out, but some forms of behavior are unacceptable. If you allow some types of behavior to go unpunished, it can cause a general disrespect for what you stand for.

(big words for one without any children of his own!)

[supernerd]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Apr 4 2004, 04:34 PM']

(big words for one without any children of his own!) [/quote]
Not really. When you have siblings, especially younger, you can gain experience from the mistakes your parents have made. Especially learn from what they emphasize: let a certain child get away with more, punish a child for their flaws... you could go on and on.

But I agree with you. If a child tries to corrupt the others, you've got to give them the boot. However, you don't have to stop loving them.


(Eh... that top part wasn't worded very well... but you get my drift. I hope.)

[Donna]

Dairygirl, my first thought is, that you are talking not about "my", but about God's house (as in "The Church").

Second thought: That it is not my house! But His. All the Popes put together cannot change the "rules" for abiding in That House.

I point out to my children that it's not just they who are being asked/told to obey - it's Mom and Dad first and foremost.

And Lord have mercy on us all!

Um...how did the Prodigal Son regard himself? That may answer part of the question "who is a child of God?"

But, one last thought: it is not enough (in a [i]certain[/i] way -badly stated I'm sure I'm doing here) to be a child of the Father; we must all be children of "the Mother", too - of Mary.

Jesus was; and the servant is not greater than the Master.

The Incarnation is a particular touchstone of orthodoxy; which is why a certain gentleman on this board spouts horrific blasphemies against Jesus; he cannot STAND the thought that God took flesh - cannot even consider it, Kyrie Eleison.

Without Mary our Lady, the Incarnation - as it was/is- could not be.

[Sojourner]

Amen, and amen.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i wonder who dug this up, this old poll thread.

i do believe in hell, just to be clear. i am still not sure what to think about saying the people in hell are not children of God. i thought Jesus said that some sinner's father is not God, but the devil,
if true, that might mean, we are all like orphans, which i've heard said before, until God adopts us in baptism.
so i might guess they are not children of God.

i am not sure i want to take that verse, where he says their father is the devil, and say those in hell are not children of God though. the reason, is because.... we're all called, saved and non saved, while on earth to repentance etc, and that God loves the world etc. and, from human experience, seeing as we're made in the image of God... people always seem to say this, as was said.....

[quote]**If you told your child not to lustfully look at a man (or a woman) and she/he did, would you not allow them into your house?**
no. There's this thing called unconditional love where you love someone despite their sins and shortcomings. I would try to show this kind of love to my child.[/quote]

so... i would maintain that those in hell are children of God, but they are separated children of God, who never went back to the father, to use the prodigal son metaphor. it doesn't make sense to me, to say that humans are more loving than God. "coming into the house" must however mean they don't sin. while not in the house tho, ie, while they are in sin... they are separated.

Edited May 20, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't see how saying they are not children of God is so superior as per reasoning for it, based on anything that's been said so far.

i could be wrong if you looked at it this way....
our experience as humans with children is such that.... it's an example of how things should be, ie unconditional acceptance of them.....
but, with God,,,, the analogy of how we experience things is not the same as with those who are lost.
those who are lost were never children.
it seems sort of like predestination though saying that.

but i still don't think it's so clear, if they are children of God or not. given our experience would seem to suggest anyone you love as God loves all would be children, and given some verses in the bible.

Edited May 20, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Didacus]

The only circumstance I can imagine where I would deny access to my house to one of my children if if the child in question qanted to enter the house with an intent to cause harm to others - i.e. the child in question was welding a weapon and screaming threats to my other siblings for example.

[CatherineM]

One of my brothers had to exclude one of my nephews from his house. He was 15, my brother had just married a woman with two small daughters that my nephew was acting lewdly towards. He came to live with me. He was also drinking and doing drugs. When he was 19, I finally had to ask him to leave. It was very difficult, but the people we was associating with began to scare me. He died 6 years later on the streets. I can't tell you how many treatment centers and detoxes he had been in. I know I made a lot of mistakes, but I was only 22 when he came to live with me, what did I know about parenting a troubled teenager. Making the decision to kick a kid out is never made lightly.

[kujo]

May none of us ever have to make this decision.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1534289' date='May 19 2008, 10:10 PM']i am not sure i want to take that verse, where he says their father is the devil, and say those in hell are not children of God though. the reason, is because.... we're all called, saved and non saved, [i][b][u]while on earth[/u][/b][/i] to repentance etc, and that God loves the world etc. and, from human experience, seeing as we're made in the image of God... people always seem to say this, as was said.....[/quote]

Let the emphasis speak for itself.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Veridicus

[dairygirl4u2c]

yes, but pointing out that they are no longer on earth isn't fixing the situatin. earth is but one, place, the afterlife is another. when your child isn't in your house anymore, whereever the are, they're still your children. so, the child of God but in hell theory could work.

it has to be that they were never children of God, or.... a new idea,,, that they are disowned former children of God. if this theory is to work, that is.
i am not comfortable with all the people aswying they'd be unconditional children,,,, but for God, that children when gone are no longer children.

something to think about... kicked out v. willingly leaving and waiting for them to return. could work either way.

Edited May 20, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Deb]

This must be an old poll because none of the choices would be reason for anyone to deny their child into their home.
If you are talking an earthly child of mine, I am not sure I could put them out. If they were a serious danger to themselves or others in the household, I would have them committed for a psych eval.
If you are talking about God and his children. I can't help you there. He doesn't discuss that much with me. I will have to wait for a while to get answers on that.

[Faith 1st]

[quote name='kujo' post='1534811' date='May 20 2008, 02:18 PM']May none of us ever have to make this decision.[/quote]


I agree with this statement

[Winchester]

English is dead.