Refusing A Heart Transplant

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702376' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:50 PM']I do not buy into the garbage promoted by liberal groups that say that suicide / euthanasia gives one a "dignified" death. Moreover, in the case of euthanasia it turns the one who does the killing into anything but dignified.[/quote]


How is that pertinent to whether or not [b]this particular girl[/b] will die a dignified death. There is no physician assisted suicide, there is no straight up suicide, there is a legitimately moral refusal of extraordinary health care.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702385' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:16 PM']The ongoing disintegration of Christian theological knowledge in the Western world is truly sad.[/quote]

I [u][b]really[/b][/u] hope that wasn't directed towards me.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702389' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:19 PM']How is that pertinent to whether or not [b]this particular girl[/b] will die a dignified death. There is no physician assisted suicide, there is no straight up suicide, there is a legitimately moral refusal of extraordinary health care.[/quote]
Because the phrase is part of the propaganda being put out by groups like the Hemlock Society. This girl is not going to "die with dignity," she is going to live with dignity as a child of God until her natural death.

[Justin86]

On the part of "death with dignity", I would have to agree with Apotheon. I was never a big fan of the term myself.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702391' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:20 PM']I [u][b]really[/b][/u] hope that wasn't directed towards me.[/quote]
Your hope is misplaced.

[Apotheoun]

Satan caused death, and so there is nothing dignified about it.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702395' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:21 PM']Your hope is misplaced.[/quote]

Except that I hope for the dignity of all persons to be upheld and a personal dig at someone would not uphold his dignity and could therefore be considered sinful if not at least a failure to achieve the greatest good. I would hope that the greatest good is always achieved and in doing so, when I see what appears to be a lesser good, I can have hope that I am mistaken in my judgment.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702399' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:30 PM']Except that I hope for the dignity of all persons to be upheld and a personal dig at someone would not uphold his dignity and could therefore be considered sinful if not at least a failure to achieve the greatest good. I would hope that the greatest good is always achieved and in doing so, when I see what appears to be a lesser good, I can have hope that I am mistaken in my judgment.[/quote]
You have once again missed the point. A person does not lose his dignity by making a mistake. Nor does he receive his dignity from other human beings. A man has dignity because he is created in the image of God.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702392' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:20 PM']Because the phrase is part of the propaganda being put out by groups like the Hemlock Society. This girl is not going to "die with dignity," she is going to live with dignity as a child of God until her natural death.[/quote]

Regardless of the propaganda of the phrase dignity with death, the way you posed your phrase was that you do not believe the garbage that those society's put out on assisted suicide et al being a dignified death. That in itself however, does not directly relate to this thread at all since even with a skewed definition of dignity, no Catholic could uphold that suicide be dignified.

The question is whether or not there is such thing as a dignified death. Posing Euthanasia and suicide as an argument against there being such thing as dignified death really won't buy any grounds in an argument against the terminology since any good standing Catholic who knew even the most basic morals of the Church would know that suicide and euthanasia are intrinsic evils and therefore could never be considered dignified.

This is a case where no moral evil, let alone intrinsic moral evil is present, and therefore imposing such immoral acts as proving the falsity of the term dignified death hold no weight.

[Apotheoun]

Satan caused death, and so there is no dignity in death.

As scripture says:

Do not invite death by the error of your life,
nor bring on destruction by the works of your hands;
because God did not make death,
and He does not delight in the death of the living.
For He created all things that they might exist,
and the generative forces of the world are wholesome,
and there is no destructive poison in them;
and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.
For righteousness is immortal.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702400' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:33 PM']You have once again missed the point. A person does not lose his dignity by making a mistake. Nor does he receive his dignity from other human beings. A man has dignity because he is created in the image of God.[/quote]

When he is failed to be looked at as created in the image of God, or in this specific sense, when a personal attack is made on his intelligence or lack thereof, his dignity is attacked and not upheld. Although ones dignity cannot be stripped of him, it can be failed to be respected as such. Look at dignity of the human life arguments for instance. It is a failure to uphold the dignity of the human life by actions such as abortion et al. Although the dignity of the human person is not stripped, it isn't respected or upheld either. I would hope that the dignity of the human person be always upheld, and therefore that all persons be respected as such at all times. If you were making a personal attack on the pitifulness of my lack of theological knowledge, then I don't feel properly respected since you have no clue as to 1. my backround or 2. the extent of my theoogical knowledge.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702401' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:35 PM']Regardless of the propaganda of the phrase dignity with death, the way you posed your phrase was that you do not believe the garbage that those society's put out on assisted suicide et al being a dignified death. That in itself however, does not directly relate to this thread at all since even with a skewed definition of dignity, no Catholic could uphold that suicide be dignified.[/quote]
It does relate to the thread, because this girl will not "die with dignity"; instead, she will live with dignity.

I do not think that we are going to agree, because I hold my position as a theological truth revealed in sacred scripture, and you hold yours as an opinion, which comes from God only knows where.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702402' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:37 PM']Satan caused death, and so there is no dignity in death.

As scripture says:

Do not invite death by the error of your life,
nor bring on destruction by the works of your hands;
because God did not make death,
and He does not delight in the death of the living.
For He created all things that they might exist,
and the generative forces of the world are wholesome,
and there is no destructive poison in them;
and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.
For righteousness is immortal.[/quote]

I have never once stated that I disagree with your statement that there is no dignity in death.

I do not disagree with those that say abortion is evil, but when they use argument such as "the baby you kill before it is born could have been the next Bach" against abortion, I highly disagree with their argument.

I disagreed with your argument in using an intrinsic moral evil to show that there is no dignity in death when referring to a situation where there was no moral evil whatsoever. I did not disagree with your original premise "There is no dignity in death"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702405' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:41 PM']I disagreed with your argument in using an intrinsic moral evil to show that there is no dignity in death when referring to a situation where there was no moral evil whatsoever. I did not disagree with your original premise "There is no dignity in death"[/quote]
You certainly do vacillate a lot.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702404' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:39 PM']It does relate to the thread, because this girl will not "die with dignity"; instead, she will live with dignity.

I do not think that we are going to agree, because I hold my position as a theological truth revealed in sacred scripture, and you hold yours as an opinion, which comes from God only knows where.[/quote]

The argument that I was disagreeing with though, does not relate since you used an intrinsic moral evil to show the lack of dignity in death which did not properly refute dignity in death in general, only in specific circumstantial cases of suicide and euthanasia of which neither pertain directly to this situation.

Yes there is no dignity in death.
Yes Satan caused death.
Yes all dignity comes from God and being created in His image.
No your argument using euthanasia and suicide did not completely defend your premise of there being no dignity in death as it left out every type of death not related to euthanasia or suicide and therefore failed to refute there being no dignity in situations apart from euthanasia and suicide.

[Apotheoun]

As I said before: the girl mentioned in this thread is not going to "die with dignity"; instead, she is going to live with dignity, because she has intrinsic worth as a child of God created in the image of the incarnate Logos.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702407' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:43 PM']You certainly do vacillate a lot.[/quote]

Haha, read every single post I made in this thread and quote me one that says I support there being dignity in death.

If you can show me one, I'll submit. It has to actually be something I said, not something that you inferred from my speech, as to have done so would have been to assume a position that was not intended nor implied.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702411' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:45 PM']Haha, read every single post I made in this thread and quote me one that says I support there being dignity in death.[/quote]
Fine hold a non-Christian viewpoint. As a Christian I believe that Christ triumphed over death, and He gives us life, which is by its very nature dignified.

God bless.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702410' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:44 PM']As I said before: the girl mentioned in this thread is not going to "die with dignity"; instead, she is going to live with dignity, because she has intrinsic worth as a child of God created in the image of the incarnate Logos.[/quote]

Agreed....

I never disagreed with this statement. Look at every single thing that my posts were referring to. They were all referring to a particular statement that came out with an argument looking something like this.

Assisted suicide is a form of death
Assisted suicide is not dignified
Therefore no death is dignified

Euthanasia is a form of death
Euthanasia is not dignified
Therefore no death is dignified

The conclusions do not necessarily follow from the premises. Although both premises are true and the conclusion isn't necessarily false, the premises do not prove the conclusion. Your original argument should have looked something more like this (which you have now already shown)

Death is a result of Satan
A result of satan is not that which upholds the dignity of man as created in the image of God
therefore death is not that which upholds the dignity of man as created in the image of God.

See how the conclusion necessarily follows from the premise. That is a strong arguments, the others did not necessarily prove this girls death to not be dignified.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702412' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:47 PM']Fine hold a non-Christian viewpoint. As a Christian I believe that Christ triumphed over death, and He gives us life, which is by its very nature dignified.

God bless.[/quote]

Apo.... you really aren't listening.

I DO [b]NOT[/b] SUPPORT there being such thing as a dignified death.... holy smokes....