Refusing A Heart Transplant

[Apotheoun]

The girl mentioned in the thread is going to live out her days, how ever many God gives her, with dignity, but she will not find dignity in her death, nor will she die with dignity. She has dignity simply because she is a human being. I pray that upon her death her living memory will be eternal.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702417' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:51 PM']The girl mentioned in the thread is going to live out her days, how ever many God gives her, with dignity, but she will not find dignity in her death, nor will she die with dignity. I pray that upon her death her living memory will be eternal.[/quote]

Agreed....
If you think that all the sudden my agreeing is a change in my opinion, please show me where i ever disagreed with this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702418' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:53 PM']Agreed....
If you think that all the sudden my agreeing is a change in my opinion, please show me where i ever disagreed with this.[/quote]
Your comments go all over the place, but I will chalk that up to your youthful exuberance.

[Slappo]

All of my comments were directed towards the post below.

The post below shows no argument for why death cannot be properly called dignified and therefore doesn't really pertain.

There is an example of your father and how his death was not dignified, but quite simply death. That does not show WHY his death was not dignified.

There is a statement regarding the garbage promoted by liberal groups, but that again does not show WHY death cannot be dignified, unless you were thinking your argument was:
Liberal groups invented the term death is not dignified
(implied second premise to prove conclusion) Liberal groups do not invent any proper terms
Therefore the term dignified death is not proper

Therefore, I rightly disagreed with your statements pertinence to the topic since you actually didn't argue anything. Then when I said it didn't relate, you said it did because it argued a particular point about the dignity of death. But clearly it doesn't actually argue anything...

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702376' date='Nov 15 2008, 09:50 PM']Death is not dignified in whatever way you go. My father went from 170 pounds to 87 pounds in three months. He was dignified, but his death was not; instead, it was quite simply death.

I do not buy into the garbage promoted by liberal groups that say that suicide / euthanasia gives one a "dignified" death. Moreover, in the case of euthanasia it turns the one who does the killing into anything but dignified.[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702425' date='Nov 15 2008, 11:07 PM']All of my comments were directed towards the post below.

The post below shows no argument for why death cannot be properly called dignified and therefore doesn't really pertain.[/quote]
My dear Slappo not every post is intended as a formulated argument.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702429' date='Nov 15 2008, 11:09 PM']My dear Slappo not every post is intended as a formulated argument.[/quote]

It wasn't even an informal argument. It was actually just a couple of statements that didn't say anything directly related to this girl's death being dignified or not.

When I said that it didn't directly relate to this girl's death being dignified or not, you disagreed, and from there I argued my point and you defended yourself.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702433' date='Nov 15 2008, 11:15 PM']It wasn't even an informal argument. It was actually just a couple of statements that didn't say anything directly related to this girl's death being dignified or not.[/quote]
Yes, it took you a while but you found me out, I did not present an argument in that post, but then I didn't intend to, because as I said already, not every post at an online forum is an argument.

Keep up the youthful exuberance.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1702435' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:17 PM']Keep up the youthful exuberance.[/quote]

Thanks, I try

Been kind of a slow night, didn't have anything better to do so I thought I'd practice my Logic class on phatmass

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1702438' date='Nov 15 2008, 11:20 PM']Thanks, I try

Been kind of a slow night, didn't have anything better to do so I thought I'd practice my Logic class on phatmass [/quote]
Just remember: God transcends created logic.

[picchick]

Apotheoun,
I think that you are playing with words and phrases here. I understand what you are getting at yet one can die undignified. I have seen it. Death is an ugly thing to many people. People are human and therefore are dignified as such. However, people have been dehumanized by programs (hospice, physcian/nurse assisted suicide (PNAS), suicide, abortion) which strips them of dignity. There are many things that strip humans of dignity. I know that dignity is not given but it is inherent, yet it can be stripped. For example, as a nurse, I always shut a door or pull a curtain to maintain the person's dignity while I change them or clean them or anything. Leaving it open would stip them of that dignity. The girl wanted to die with dignity. She felt that the surgery and the subsequent treatment thereof would not allow her the dignity of a human.

One could argue that this same priniciple could apply to PNAS. The person wants dignity therefore he does not want to die at 87 lbs and in pain. However, this suicide strips the human of their dignity by denying a natural death. Thus my suggestion that hospice and PNAS skews the meaning of the phrase. This same principle can also be applied to patients whose family will not let go and subject their loved ones to extraordinary means.

I could keep going but I am currently really tired and in need of sleep.
Meg

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='picchick' post='1702489' date='Nov 16 2008, 12:50 AM']Apotheoun,
I think that you are playing with words and phrases here.[/quote]
You may think whatever you want, but I am being faithful to the theological tradition of the Church Fathers.

God bless,
Todd

[Jesus_lol]

Apo, if you took a little time to read the responses, you would find that you and Slappo hold the same opinion on this case, but you are merely arguing semantics over which phrase to use. i would appreciate if you took you "holier than thou" attitude down a peg.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1702744' date='Nov 16 2008, 01:33 PM']Apo, if you took a little time to read the responses, you would find that you and Slappo hold the same opinion on this case, but you are merely arguing semantics over which phrase to use. i would appreciate if you took you "holier than thou" attitude down a peg.[/quote]
I always love paradox involved when people bring up things like "being holier than thou."

[picchick]

Apotheoun,
Did you read the rest of my post or did you just read the first sentence?
Meg

[Apotheoun]

I read it, but I do not agree that someone or something can strip a person of dignity. Dignity is inherently a part of human nature, and cannot be stripped from a person. The fact that some may not recognize the inherent dignity of others does not remove that quality from their nature.

Death has no dignity, in fact death is the absence of life, and nothing more.

[Apotheoun]

In my father's case there was no dignity in his death, but he was always dignified.

[Apotheoun]

The Eastern Christian tradition sees death as Satan's attack upon God, and I see no dignity in that.

[picchick]

Maybe I worded my post wrong.

A person is alway dignified.
A person's dignity can be violated (ooo much better word) which I have seen done.
Dead is never a dignified thing.
We can protect a person's dignity from violation during their death.


Does that make it more clear? I should have said violated rather than stripped. Stripped was a bad word.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='picchick' post='1702765' date='Nov 16 2008, 02:00 PM']Maybe I worded my post wrong.

A person is alway dignified.
A person's dignity can be violated (ooo much better word) which I have seen done.
Dead is never a dignified thing.
We can protect a person's dignity from violation during their death.


Does that make it more clear? I should have said violated rather than stripped. Stripped was a bad word.[/quote]
Much better. Protecting a person's inherent dignity is the Christian thing to do, but there is no dignity in death itself or in dying.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Two and a half months of constant diarrhea was certainly not a dignified thing, but my father's inherent dignity was in no way damaged by that horrible problem.