Should The Death Penalty Be Made Illegal In The Us?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='philothea' post='1714930' date='Nov 30 2008, 03:26 PM']The best argument against the death penalty [b]in the present day USA[/b], is that our police, and our elected prosecutors have been shown to frequently convict innocent people. They do it because it makes them look "tough on crime" which makes the voters and tax payers feel good.[/quote]

Innocent people are not put on death row [b]on purpose[/b]. This is a horrendous claim.

Police and prosecutors do not convict, by the way. The jury makes the verdict and then the judge determines the sentence. In any event, if a person is convicted (found guilty) of a crime this means that there is beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is guilty. If there is no ample evidence the person is determined to be not guilty.

[CatherineM]

I have always had trouble having a productive debate on this subject. The execution I stood witness at was so gruesome that adult men passed out and crashed to the floor. The man who was being executed wasn't innocent. He was despicable. He and another man had raped and killed a woman, and just to make sure she was dead, he hammered a nail up her nose. I know that as a Catholic the CCC says that capital punishment can be used in certain limited circumstances. I also know that John Paul II was opposed to capital punishment. He begged for clemency for every execution scheduled in the United States. I think that if he was against the death penalty, it's probably okay for me to be against it too.

[philothea]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1714979' date='Nov 30 2008, 04:00 PM']Innocent people are not put on death row [b]on purpose[/b]. This is a horrendous claim.[/quote]
You, apparently, have not looked up the undercover investigations of the Chicago police... (Annoyance at them, not you.)

[quote]Police and prosecutors do not convict, by the way. The jury makes the verdict and then the judge determines the sentence. In any event, if a person is convicted (found guilty) of a crime this means that there is beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is guilty. If there is no ample evidence the person is determined to be not guilty.[/quote]
If they get a confession out of someone, there's no trial. They all pled guilty. They were innocent.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1714979' date='Nov 30 2008, 03:00 PM']Innocent people are not put on death row [b]on purpose[/b]. This is a horrendous claim.

Police and prosecutors do not convict, by the way. The jury makes the verdict and then the judge determines the sentence. In any event, if a person is convicted (found guilty) of a crime this means that there is beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is guilty. If there is no ample evidence the person is determined to be not guilty.[/quote]

One of the first things they teach in law school in the criminal law course is that most jurors believe going in that the accused is guilty, otherwise they would not have been arrested. It's not the way it is supposed to be, but it is the way it is.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1714979' date='Nov 30 2008, 04:00 PM']Innocent people are not put on death row [b]on purpose[/b]. This is a horrendous claim.

Police and prosecutors do not convict, by the way. The jury makes the verdict and then the judge determines the sentence. In any event, if a person is convicted (found guilty) of a crime this means that there is beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is guilty. If there is no ample evidence the person is determined to be not guilty.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you on this point.

There was a man in Illinois - Rolando Cruz. He was arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced to death for the murder of a girl named Jeanine Nicarico. It turns out that there was a lot of questionable conduct about how the police and prosecutors conducted themselves (enough that some of the LEOs were themselves taken to court) and enough to question the evidence, including indications that another man was in fact guilty. An appeals court did overturn the conviction, but even with everything pointing to the fact that another person was responsible, the prosecutors still wanted to refile charges and retry him! Finally, he was released from prison.

My beef with the death penalty is not whether or not it is necessary (I think it still needs to be kept as an option), but the fact that the criminal justice system lacks a lot of common sense and is less about finding the truth and more about lawyers playing games.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='philothea' post='1715012' date='Nov 30 2008, 04:25 PM']You, apparently, have not looked up the undercover investigations of the Chicago police... (Annoyance at them, not you.)

If they get a confession out of someone, there's no trial. They all pled guilty. They were innocent.[/quote]

I would like to read up on this. I did a search but did not find any articles.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1715015' date='Nov 30 2008, 04:30 PM']One of the first things they teach in law school in the criminal law course is that most jurors believe going in that the accused is guilty, otherwise they would not have been arrested. It's not the way it is supposed to be, but it is the way it is.[/quote]

They do have the process of jury selection, however, which helps decrease this bias amongst the members. And especially with huge cases - like murder - the jury members are not allowed to watch anything or read anything that pertains to the case in order to avoid outside rumors, gossip, etc. So the only evidence they are presented with is the evidence given to them within the court room. (Therefore they have an equal amount of information being presented to them from both sides.)


[quote name='Norseman82' post='1715119' date='Nov 30 2008, 06:05 PM']I have to disagree with you on this point.

There was a man in Illinois - Rolando Cruz. He was arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced to death for the murder of a girl named Jeanine Nicarico. It turns out that there was a lot of questionable conduct about how the police and prosecutors conducted themselves (enough that some of the LEOs were themselves taken to court) and enough to question the evidence, including indications that another man was in fact guilty. An appeals court did overturn the conviction, but even with everything pointing to the fact that another person was responsible, the prosecutors still wanted to refile charges and retry him! Finally, he was released from prison.

My beef with the death penalty is not whether or not it is necessary (I think it still needs to be kept as an option), but the fact that the criminal justice system lacks a lot of common sense and is less about finding the truth and more about lawyers playing games.[/quote]

This is interesting. But I do have to say that these were people, not the actual system. I would like to hear your explanation as to why you believe the system lacks common sense, etc.

[BG45]

Due Process by its nature in theory allows ten guilty men to go free in order to allow the innocent person to go free as well. It doesn't always work, but a lot of frustrated prosecutors and law enforcement officials can also testify that it does so a lot.

As for the topic of jury selections...I've had the 'honor' of jury duty one month before. I was called for three times, one ended in mistrial before we ever heard the evidence. One I was excused because I knew the defendant, one of the witnesses, the assistant prosecuting attorney, the defense attorney, and the victim. One I was excused with a pre-emptory strike after the defense attorney found out that I was in my undergraduate criminal justice studies at the time.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='flip' post='1714401' date='Nov 30 2008, 01:39 AM']Why or why not?[/quote]
There is nothing wrong with a properly enforced death penalty for murderers.

[CatherineM]

"I have noticed that no one who files last-minute appeals for a stay of execution had adequate representation at trial." - Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

-Ninety-five percent of death row inmates cannot afford their own attorney. Court-appointed attorneys often lack the experience necessary for capital trials and are overworked and underpaid. In the most extreme cases, some have slept through parts of trials or have arrived under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.

-Prosecutors seek the death penalty far more frequently when the victim of a homicide is white than when the victim is African-American or of another ethnic/racial origin.

-Co-defendants charged with committing the same crime often receive different punishments, where one defendant may receive a death sentence while another receives prison time.

-Each prosecutor decides whether or not to seek the death penalty. Local politics, the location of the crime, plea bargaining, and pure chance affect the process and make it a lottery of who lives and who dies.

-GEOGRAPHIC ARBITRARINESS: Since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 80% of all executions have taken place in the South. The Northeast accounts for less than 2% of executions.

As the wife of a schizophrenic what greatly concerns me is the number of people with serious mental illnesses that are executed. A list of just a couple:

-James Colburn had an extensive history of paranoid schizophrenia when he was arrested for murder. During his 1995 trial, Mr. Colburn received injections of Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug that can have a powerful sedative effect. A 1997 post-conviction assessment questioned Mr. Colburn's competency to stand trial at that time, finding he had been "seriously sedated during the time of his trial." He was executed March 26, 2003.

-On January 6, 2004, the State of Arkansas executed Charles Singleton, who was said to be "seriously deranged without treatment" and "arguably incompetent with treatment." It was only during an episode of "drug-induced sanity" that the state scheduled his execution.

-On May 18, 2004, Kelsey Patterson was executed in Texas although he was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 1981 and did not possess rational understanding at his trial.

Lots of more information can be obtained [url="http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/page.do?id=1101088"]HERE[/url]. Just another Social Justice lecture from the local, bleeding heart, pinko-communist, femi-nazi.

[Apotheoun]

The death penalty should not be made illegal because it is a part of the natural law and divine revelation.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1714843' date='Nov 30 2008, 03:39 PM']And what about respect for the innocent life of the victims? By refusing to excute perpertraturs of greusome murders, are we not telling society, at the very least, that there are worser things than their actions?[/quote]

I don't believe that killing the perpetrator erases the crime. And no, I don't think by not executing criminals we are saying that there are worse things than their actions. -Katie

[HisChildForever]

[quote]-Prosecutors seek the death penalty far more frequently when the victim of a homicide is white than when the victim is African-American or of another ethnic/racial origin.[/quote]

Just to point out, statistics state that the majority of black homicide victims are murdered by blacks, and the majority of white homicide victims are murdered by whites.

The point is this: race is not the biggest issue it appears to be.

[quote]Most of the black murder victims -- 93 percent -- were killed by other black people, the study found. About 85 percent of white victims were slain by other white people.[/quote]
Source: [url="http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/8/10/95425.shtml"]http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articl.../10/95425.shtml[/url]

I have other sources but that involves me looking it up in my text books and I am currently studying. And procrastinating.

Edited December 1, 2008 by HisChildForever

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1714845' date='Nov 30 2008, 03:40 PM']I support the death penalty. Does this mean I respect life less compared to the person who does not support the death penalty?[/quote]

Not necessarily, because there are various ways people look at the situation, issues we as individuals weigh against one another. I agree that the death penalty isn't a black and white life issue like abortion but I personally believe that, in our society, we have the means to create a safe society without the death penalty. -Katie

[philothea]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1715188' date='Nov 30 2008, 06:48 PM']I would like to read up on this. I did a search but did not find any articles.[/quote]
Use these as search terms: northwestern journalism illinois death penalty

The Chicago Police Commander who used torture to get all those false confessions was [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Burge"]Jon Burge[/url]. (Link to Wikipedia. The section on Burge's torture methods is fairly graphic and could be upsetting to sensitive people.)

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1715188' date='Nov 30 2008, 06:48 PM']This is interesting. But I do have to say that these were people, not the actual system. I would like to hear your explanation as to why you believe the system lacks common sense, etc.[/quote]
I realize you're asking Norseman, but for my part... prosecutors and judges are elected positions, and voters want "results." A prosecutor saying he caught the bad guy and has obtained the maximum possible penalty gets a whole lot more approval from the common voter than "there wasn't enough evidence, so we didn't convict anyone."

Even if there [i]really isn't[/i] enough evidence to convict anyone...

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1715267' date='Nov 30 2008, 08:09 PM']Not necessarily, because there are various ways people look at the situation, issues we as individuals weigh against one another. I agree that the death penalty isn't a black and white life issue like abortion but I personally believe that, in our society, we have the means to create a safe society without the death penalty. -Katie[/quote]

And what are these means?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1715255' date='Nov 30 2008, 07:02 PM']The death penalty should not be made illegal because it is a part of the natural law and divine revelation.[/quote]

I've been meaning to ask you for a link or book I could read this natural law and divine revelation out of. It has apparently been a big gap in my education, and I think it would be very good for me to read. About the only reference my professors refer us to is scripture, canon law, and the CCC. Is this codified somewhere, or is it recited by someone like Augustine or Aquinas?

[KnightofChrist]

What is often forgotten is that one we can not throw all violent murders in a hole for the rest of their lives. And two non-murders or non-violent criminals in prison are humans and part of society too, thus they also deserve to be protected from murders just as much as those outside of prison do.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1715273' date='Nov 30 2008, 06:10 PM']I've been meaning to ask you for a link or book I could read this natural law and divine revelation out of. It has apparently been a big gap in my education, and I think it would be very good for me to read. About the only reference my professors refer us to is scripture, canon law, and the CCC. Is this codified somewhere, or is it recited by someone like Augustine or Aquinas?[/quote]
Heinrich Rommen wrote a nice book on the natural law, entitled -- of all things -- "The Natural Law," and you can even read Aquinas on the death penalty, since he is fairly representative of the Western ecclesiastical tradition on the topic. Finally, as far as divine revelation is concerned, read the Bible, both the Old and the New Testaments, because you will not find a condemnation of the death penalty there, and in fact you will find that God encourages its just use.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Apotheoun

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1715286' date='Nov 30 2008, 07:16 PM']Heinrich Rommen wrote a nice book on the natural law, entitled -- of all things -- "The Natural Law," and you can even read Aquinas on the death penalty, since he is fairly representative of the Western ecclesiastical tradition on the topic. Finally, as far as divine revelation is concerned, read the Bible, both the Old and the New Testaments, because you will not find a condemnation of the death penalty there, and in fact you will find that God encourages its just use.[/quote]

Thanks. I wonder if John Paul II hadn't read Rommen, or just disagreed?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1715281' date='Nov 30 2008, 08:12 PM']What is often forgotten is that one we can not throw all violent murders in a hole for the rest of their lives. And two non-murders or non-violent criminals in prison are humans and part of society too, thus they also deserve to be protected from murders just as much as those outside of prison do.[/quote]

Precisely.