Should The Death Penalty Be Made Illegal In The Us?

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718181' date='Dec 3 2008, 10:03 PM']It would be the same Roman law that Christ said was "given thee from above."[/quote]

What about when the Romans, in later years, called on Christians to rencounce their faith or die?



[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718180' date='Dec 3 2008, 10:03 PM']It is the Douay-Rheims Bible, a Catholic Bible. You are obligated to believe in what God has authored and established. God has authored and established the Death Penalty thus you are indeed obligated to "believe in" it.[/quote]

No, I'm not.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718180' date='Dec 3 2008, 10:03 PM']Which ever translation it is speaking of unjustly taking the life of another, war or otherwise, that is murder.[/quote]

I wasn't referring to the way the victim's life was taken, I was saying the person who had killed may have themselves been killed in some other way than the death penalty.




[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718180' date='Dec 3 2008, 10:03 PM']And Mother Church has supported the death penalty for 2,000 years universally for the whole of the earth. This makes that teaching traditional and required, 25 years from one group of Bishops for a short time is not traditional and is not a required or a binding belief.[/quote]


I didn't say you had to believe the death penalty was wrong. But, I also think you don't have to believe it's right.

Their intent is honorable, but it does not override the Traditional teaching of Mother Church in support of the state's God given right to execute justice via the Death Penalty.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718180' date='Dec 3 2008, 10:03 PM']Which by the way is not part of the 'the cycle of violence.' If it is part of the 'the cycle of violence' then Mother Church who is Divine, the Body of Christ, there for Christ has sinned. Violence is a sin. Can Christ sin? No.[/quote]

I think they meant in the circumstances in our society, it is part of a violent culture.







[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718180' date='Dec 3 2008, 10:03 PM']You proven you don't know a good deal about Catholic Teaching, such as saying "I've never heard."[/quote]

That's why I said "I've never heard" and not "I know for a fact." I don't pretend to know everything. I'm still learning. That's why I have these discussions. I don't know anyone that knows every last detail about Church Teaching. Also, I said the governments did not have unrestricted and unfalling power. This is correct. The power with which God endowed governments can be misused and its legitimacy compromised at the hands of the government itself.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718180' date='Dec 3 2008, 10:03 PM']I am sorry but it is the will of God, He established it, He authored it, He demands it's existence for Justice sake.[/quote]

Again, I maintain that I'm free to believe that the Death Penalty is not warranted in this current society. -Katie

[CatherineM]

I guess I'm just pretty shocked that 60% are against the death penalty. The way I always get attacked for my beliefs, I figured it was closer to 10% on Phatmass tops.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718515' date='Dec 4 2008, 01:51 AM']What about when the Romans, in later years, called on Christians to rencounce their faith or die?[/quote]


I dont think you understand. The state only has the right to use the death penalty when it is justly used against those who've committed great sins. Putting christians to death because they are christians is not just. Thus is not what God intend.


[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718515' date='Dec 4 2008, 01:51 AM']No, I'm not.[/quote]

Well, you are in so much that God established it. You 'can' by free will reject what He has established. I just wouldn't recommend it.


[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718515' date='Dec 4 2008, 01:51 AM']I wasn't referring to the way the victim's life was taken, I was saying the person who had killed may have themselves been killed in some other way than the death penalty.[/quote]

It could be seen that way but it is also the way in which I describe.

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718515' date='Dec 4 2008, 01:51 AM']I didn't say you had to believe the death penalty was wrong. But, I also think you don't have to believe it's right.[/quote]

What God has established is good and right. The fact that God will send unrepented sinners to hell is good and right. We must submit to the will of God and His will is always right.

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718515' date='Dec 4 2008, 01:51 AM']I think they meant in the circumstances in our society, it is part of a violent culture.[/quote]

All I know is that God has given to the state the right to use the death penalty in a just manner. Since this comes from God it can not be said to be 'violate' because violence is a sin, God does not endorse sin. I refuse to speculate further on what the Bishops meant.

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718515' date='Dec 4 2008, 01:51 AM']That's why I said "I've never heard" and not "I know for a fact." I don't pretend to know everything. I'm still learning. That's why I have these discussions. I don't know anyone that knows every last detail about Church Teaching. Also, I said the governments did not have unrestricted and unfalling power. This is correct. The power with which God endowed governments can be misused and its legitimacy compromised at the hands of the government itself.[/quote]

Well you did seem to not only say that but argue that governments are not back up by God. But lets let this pass.

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718515' date='Dec 4 2008, 01:51 AM']Again, I maintain that I'm free to believe that the Death Penalty is not warranted in this current society. -Katie[/quote]

Our current society does not negate that God gave all states the power of the sword, capital punishment, or the death penalty to act as His mister for justice as part of natural law. Natural law is beyond current societies, it's truth does not change through the course of time. Truth does not change through the course of time. Something that is part of natural law can not be true one day, and not true another. Or true in one state and not in another.

We can not oppose what God has established.

[KnightofChrist]

Just thought I'd add that the thieves on the other crosses where likely not so much thieves but Gorilla Fighters, fighting to restore the independent nation of Israel. This according to Bishop Fulton J. Sheen.

Edited December 4, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718784' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:30 PM']I dont think you understand. The state only has the right to use the death penalty when it is justly used against those who've committed great sins. Putting christians to death because they are christians is not just. Thus is not what God intend.[/quote]

You misunderstand my meaning-I was using that an example of a government that was misusing its power. In my first post to you, I said that I did not think governments had unrestricted power, I was pointing out that we are free to question a government's validity if it is for the good of the community.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718784' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:30 PM']Well, you are in so much that God established it. You 'can' by free will reject what He has established. I just wouldn't recommend it.[/quote]

Again, not an Infallible teaching, not obligated to accept it. There are many Catholic organizations that speak out against the Death Penalty. Were this "defying the will of God", I would assume the Magisterium would have asked them to stop.





[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718784' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:30 PM']It could be seen that way but it is also the way in which I describe.[/quote]

Agreed.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718784' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:30 PM']What God has established is good and right. The fact that God will send unrepented sinners to hell is good and right. We must submit to the will of God and His will is always right.[/quote]

Do you believe God really wills that anyone go to hell? Or do we, by making the choices we make, condmen ourselves by separating ourselves from God and rejecting Him, which He, as a giver of free will, allows us to do.



[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718784' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:30 PM']All I know is that God has given to the state the right to use the death penalty in a just manner. Since this comes from God it can not be said to be 'violate' because violence is a sin, God does not endorse sin. I refuse to speculate further on what the Bishops meant.[/quote]

My point here was simply that the USCCB was speaking out in favor of abolition, to the best of my knowledge no higher officials stepped in and corrected them, thus, desiring the abolition of the death penalty is not a sin.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718784' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:30 PM']Our current society does not negate that God gave all states the power of the sword, capital punishment, or the death penalty to act as His mister for justice as part of natural law. Natural law is beyond current societies, it's truth does not change through the course of time. Truth does not change through the course of time. Something that is part of natural law can not be true one day, and not true another. Or true in one state and not in another.[/quote]

I never said that truth changes. I said that it is worth, in my opinion, noting that the Death Penalty is allowed to be used in warranted circumstances; it is not carte blanche power. I am stating my opinion that the ability of current society to maintain public safety wtihout the death penalty is much greater than it has been in the past. Thus, there is nothing wrong with believing that our society's circumstances do not meet the requirements for just use of the Death Penalty, thus it is not ethical within the constraints of our society. I am not saying anyone else is obligated to believe this, I am stating that I am allowed to believe it.

Truth doesn't change, circumstances do.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1718784' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:30 PM']We can not oppose what God has established.[/quote]

Our ideas on establish vs allow obviously differ.
-Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1719044' date='Dec 4 2008, 07:06 PM']Just thought I'd add that the thieves on the other crosses where likely not so much thieves but Gorilla Fighters, fighting to restore the independent nation of Israel. This according to Bishop Fulton J. Sheen.[/quote]

Interesting, but I still don't think that being involved in guerilla warfare would necessarily merit the death penalty either. -Katie

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1719142' date='Dec 4 2008, 08:30 PM']Interesting, but I still don't think that being involved in guerilla warfare would necessarily merit the death penalty either. -Katie[/quote]

It could, if they unjustly took the life of someone. That is if they murdered someone or people. Those are often the tactics of guerilla warfare.

Also I've meant to bring this up earlier. I often heard the argument that God is love so He would not support the death penalty. This argument seems to violate the law of non-contradiction. Because God, has, does, and will send souls to hell forever to be tormented by devils. If God did not support the death penalty He would not send souls to hell.

And God is love, and that is why He supports the Death Penalty, and why He sends souls to hell.

Edited December 5, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Tinkerlina]

Well, I never used the "God is Love" argument. But, as far as Hell goes, again, I don't know that it's truly accurate to say that God wills, as in [i]wants [/i]Hell, as with all things since the fall, I believe He only allows it as its necessity came about after the Fall of Humanity. In other words, it's our fault, not God's.

[i]We must not consider the eternal punishment of hell as a series of separate of distinct terms of punishment, as if God were forever again and again pronouncing a new sentence and inflicting new penalties, and as if He could never satisfy His desire of vengeance. Hell is, especially in the eyes of God, one and indivisible in its entirety; it is but one sentence and one penalty.[b] We may represent to ourselves a punishment of indescribable intensity as in a certain sense the equivalent of an eternal punishment; this may help us to see better how God ]permits the sinner to fall into hell -- how a man who sets at naught all Divine warnings, who fails to profit by all the patient forbearance God has shown him, and who in wanton disobedience is absolutely bent on rushing into eternal punishment, can be finally permitted by God's just indignation to fall into hell[/b].[/i] (Catholic Encyclopedia)

I'll add the disclaimer that, as I said before, I am not pretending to know everything about Catholic Doctrine. I'm still questioning it, figuring it all out, whatever. So no yelling at me for not knowing something, none of us know everything nor do we understand it perfectly. -Katie

Edited December 5, 2008 by Tinkerlina

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1716007' date='Dec 1 2008, 03:59 PM']who determines when it is used justly?

the state?[/quote]


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1716010' date='Dec 1 2008, 04:02 PM']Yes the state based on reason, morality, justice and things of this nature.[/quote]


This seems like a type of circular logic...explain it a bit more. The state has the right, as long as the uses are just, but the state determines whether the uses are just. Maybe it is less circular logic, but more of a conflict of interest.

Further, re: "based on reason, morality, justice and things of this nature" - who determines whether the state is reasonable, moral, just and properly posesses or administers (sp) 'things of this nature'?

The state again??

Has there been a 'state' that said, "by golly, we are not using the DP justly, with reason, morality, and with other things of this nature; therefore, we should stop."? and then did they stop?

I am trying to find an example of the DP ever being used unjustly by the parameters you've given, and then rectified, or perhaps merely acknowledged, by the same state that unjustly killed said people. I do not imply such examples do not exist, i am merely stupid and do not know of any. If there are no such examples, does the argument of the state judging itself fall a little flat?

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1719163' date='Dec 4 2008, 08:57 PM']If there are no such examples, does the argument of the state judging itself fall a little flat?[/quote]

No, I think your point about who is judging whether or not the government is hitting the mark on morality and the all important "things of that nature" is very relevant. I think we've seen some pretty clear examples, including within our own government, where "the state" is at pretty serious odds with Church Teaching, the Natural Law and the common good. Who is this watchdog making sure the state is actually being just? Wouldn't it be its citizens? Therefore, wouldn't someone be within his/her rights to question the Death Penalty if the person doubted that it was being used justly within the "state?" I don't think the state having "the power of the sword" means they can condemn whoever they want to death. Nor do I think they could constitutionally use a sword...-Katie

Edited December 5, 2008 by Tinkerlina

[Norseman82]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1719044' date='Dec 4 2008, 06:06 PM']Gorilla Fighters, fighting to restore the independent nation of Israel. This according to Bishop Fulton J. Sheen.[/quote]

Did they train at [url="http://www.chestnutshop.com/pages/gorilla_sports.html"]Gorilla Sports[/url]?

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1719168' date='Dec 4 2008, 09:03 PM']Did they train at [url="http://www.chestnutshop.com/pages/gorilla_sports.html"]Gorilla Sports[/url]?[/quote]

Snazzy place! -Katie

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1719168' date='Dec 4 2008, 09:03 PM']Did they train at [url="http://www.chestnutshop.com/pages/gorilla_sports.html"]Gorilla Sports[/url]?[/quote]

[img]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/Alacardian/Animals/988lol-gorilla.jpg[/img]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1719163' date='Dec 4 2008, 08:57 PM']This seems like a type of circular logic...explain it a bit more. The state has the right, as long as the uses are just, but the state determines whether the uses are just. Maybe it is less circular logic, but more of a conflict of interest.

Further, re: "based on reason, morality, justice and things of this nature" - who determines whether the state is reasonable, moral, just and properly posesses or administers (sp) 'things of this nature'?

The state again??

Has there been a 'state' that said, "by golly, we are not using the DP justly, with reason, morality, and with other things of this nature; therefore, we should stop."? and then did they stop?

I am trying to find an example of the DP ever being used unjustly by the parameters you've given, and then rectified, or perhaps merely acknowledged, by the same state that unjustly killed said people. I do not imply such examples do not exist, i am merely stupid and do not know of any. If there are no such examples, does the argument of the state judging itself fall a little flat?[/quote]


I will try to better explain but I'm tried physically, and quite frankly upset I'm having difficultly in explaining and so many these days are so unschooled in catechist.

God has given the state the duty to protect society, and bring justice as His mister. The state having this awesome power of the sword, must look at the practical case at hand and rule if the crime violated natural law so much that the criminal is worthy of death. Some crimes by natural law and thus the will of God require the criminal to be put to death, which is why God has established it, and given the state the unalienable right to justly carry out capital punishment. But in ruling the state can not violate natural law, reason, morality, and therefor justice.

Natural Law and morality does allow for call for the death of innocent men, that would be murder which is immoral and against natural law. Reason tells us that j-walkers or other similar non-violate 'criminals' should not be put to death.

Edited December 5, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1719627' date='Dec 5 2008, 01:29 AM']I will try to better explain but I'm tried physically, and quite frankly upset I'm having difficultly in explaining and so many these days are so unschooled in catechist.[/quote]

Sorry to be such a burden

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1719627' date='Dec 5 2008, 01:29 AM']God has given the state the duty to protect society, and bring justice as His mister. The state having this [i]awesome power of the sword[/i], must look at the practical case at hand and rule if the crime violated natural law so much that the criminal is worthy of death. Some crimes by natural law and thus the will of God require the criminal to be put to death, which is why God has established it, and given the state the unalienable right to justly carry out capital punishment. But in ruling the state can not violate natural law, reason, morality, and therefor justice.[/quote]

I think you are glorifying it a bit.... and the state's right is not unalienable if the state is not acting justly.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1719627' date='Dec 5 2008, 01:29 AM']Natural Law and morality does allow for call for the death of innocent men, that would be murder which is immoral and against natural law. Reason tells us that j-walkers or other similar non-violate 'criminals' should not be put to death.[/quote]

Some countries have the death penalty for selling drugs. -Katie

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1719161' date='Dec 4 2008, 08:55 PM']Well, I never used the "God is Love" argument. But, as far as Hell goes, again, I don't know that it's truly accurate to say that God wills, as in [i]wants [/i]Hell, as with all things since the fall, I believe He only allows it as its necessity came about after the Fall of Humanity. In other words, it's our fault, not God's.

[i]We must not consider the eternal punishment of hell as a series of separate of distinct terms of punishment, as if God were forever again and again pronouncing a new sentence and inflicting new penalties, and as if He could never satisfy His desire of vengeance. Hell is, especially in the eyes of God, one and indivisible in its entirety; it is but one sentence and one penalty.[b] We may represent to ourselves a punishment of indescribable intensity as in a certain sense the equivalent of an eternal punishment; this may help us to see better how God ]permits the sinner to fall into hell -- how a man who sets at naught all Divine warnings, who fails to profit by all the patient forbearance God has shown him, and who in wanton disobedience is absolutely bent on rushing into eternal punishment, can be finally permitted by God's just indignation to fall into hell[/b].[/i] (Catholic Encyclopedia)

I'll add the disclaimer that, as I said before, I am not pretending to know everything about Catholic Doctrine. I'm still questioning it, figuring it all out, whatever. So no yelling at me for not knowing something, none of us know everything nor do we understand it perfectly. -Katie[/quote]

I would agree with the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia. However I believe you may have misunderstood me or I was not clear. God wills that those who reject Him be thrown down to hell, and He does this through a great love, that most will not understand.

It is God who is our judge, who will allow us into heaven or send us to hell. No it is not the will of God that anyone goes to hell in the way the C.E. is speaking but it is the will of God that the wicked go to hell and He will send them on their unmerry way. Just as God cast Satan and his wicked angels down to hell, just as Christ will spew those who are lukewarm out of His mouth, to hell.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment:

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1719638' date='Dec 4 2008, 11:41 PM']Sorry to be such a burden [/quote]

Just remember that just because someone on Phatmass says that the church teaches a certain thing definitively, unless they are ordained clergy, or a church scholar that you know to be knowledgeable on the subject, take it with a grain of salt. Ask your pastor for his opinion and counsel. Every priest trained in North America has at least an MDiv.