Pro Choice

[Guest nvzbl]

And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro Choice, with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against abortion personally and promote safe sex and cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.

[Didacus]

'council' the forgiveness of God's love is always a good endeavor, but one must take care not to confuse it with 'giving permission or license' to commit sins.

[Guest nvzbl]

Exaclty .

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717422' date='Dec 3 2008, 01:11 PM']And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro Choice, with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against abortion personally and promote safe sex and cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.[/quote]

Do you mean "I would not get an abortion because I personally believe that it is wrong, but I will not stop others from getting one" is your opinion?

How does this make sense? Especially since abortion is murder. You do not support murder but you support others who support it?

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
nope, sorry. try again. pro choice is pro abortion. you can pretty the language up all you like, it means the same thing. being indifferent (or flat out for) the killing of pre-born human beings.

[CatherineM]

Someone else said that is the equivalent of saying I would never molest a child, but I'm not going to protest against a pedophile for doing it. It's none of my business, besides, being a pedophile is just the way God made him.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

I firmly believe in protesting every step we make as a society in the wrong direction because as time goes on, we become "used" to the way things are, and forget the way things should be. I suspect that you were born after Roe vs. Wade, so all you have ever known is legalized abortion, and have been indoctrinated in the idea that we have to accept everyone wanting to do anything they wish, or else we are bigots/racists/fascists.

Once it is okay to kill the unborn, then it becomes okay to kill children, the sick, the elderly, anyone who isn't seen as worthy of life. I would be one of the first to go since I am disabled. I am many people's idea of a wasted life, an inconvenience. If I can't help protect the most vulnerable, who is going to stand up to protect me, when the idea police come to my door.

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1717437' date='Dec 3 2008, 01:24 PM']Do you mean "I would not get an abortion because I personally believe that it is wrong, but I will not stop others from getting one" is your opinion?

How does this make sense? Especially since abortion is murder. You do not support murder but you support others who support it?[/quote]
It doesnt make sense. I cant stop anybody from doing anything. I dont have that power God does. But I'm saying there might be poeple out there on the other side of the fence whom might still disagree with abortion. I, persoally, disagree wtih abortion. But it might be true for others to have similar ideas on it.

Edited December 3, 2008 by nvzbl

[Snowflake3981]

That viewpoint reminded me of this poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984).

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."
Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

Just because you're not the one commiting the sin doesn't mean that you should be indiferent about it. If you saw someone robbing a bank would you not give a description to the police of who did it? If you were following a drunk driver would you not call 911 to report it?

Who will stand up for these poor babies who are being sacrificed? They can't stand up for themselves.

[Guest nvzbl]

I dont think anybody who looks at abortion looks at it as a 'good' thing.

[Guest nvzbl]

I think everybody would stand up.

[Paddington]

If pro-choice is not pro-abortion, then it has to assume that abortions won't go down thru illegalization. That is the only way to be pro-choice and anti-abortion. But, it is not possible to prove that abortions won't go down. The two sides have VERY different statistics for abortions pre-Roe. I personally think they would go way down. Also, I have yet to hear a pro-lifer say that overturning Roe v. Wade should be the only anti-abortion measure. Resources and education should be thrown in and the pro-life movement is already doing these, and would be happy to do more. I like how Feminists For Life preaches to make abortion "unthinkable" and that there is a solution to ending abortion because "there has to be."

Just to add something for the discussion....
Pro-choicers who should never pretend to be anti-abortion are those who
* want tax-payer funding for abortions in the U.S.
* want tax-payer funding for abortions outside of the U.S.
* want tax-payer funding for any reason for a group that provides or promotes abortion
* do not want informed consent for women choose an abortion
* do not want waiting periods for women who abort
* do not want parental consent for young ones who abort
* do not want to offend anybody by persuading them not to abort
* do not want sidewalk counselers
* commit intimidating or harassing or violent acts against pro-life workers
* come close to saying "but if the baby is _____" ex. handicapped, poor, sick, unloved
* fund-raising for local abortions

It is normal for Planned Parenthood and Naral (etc.) fans to show their support for abortion thru things listed above. They think they are better than the unborn, and that those waiting to be born will inconvenience them and others in society that are somehow worthy of protection according to their selfish rubric. They insult those who stick up for life thru lies such as "anti-woman" and "anti-freedom." They ignore the facts that "middle ground" issues such as tax-funding do influence the number of abortions performed. They call heroic the abortionists and crisis counselors who encourage abortions.

Perhaps the most glaringly pathetic thing is how so many pro-choicers think they are actually "sticking it to the man" by killing innocent human beings. And, just fill in the blanks about why so many younger men want it legal.

[Paddington]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717466' date='Dec 3 2008, 05:12 PM']I dont think anybody who looks at abortion looks at it as a 'good' thing.[/quote]

There are people who admit they like abortion and more who won't admit it.

[Guest nvzbl]

I dont agree with tax-payer funding for abortions.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='CatherineM' post='1717460' date='Dec 3 2008, 11:38 AM']Someone else said that is the equivalent of saying I would never molest a child, but I'm not going to protest against a pedophile for doing it. It's none of my business, besides, being a pedophile is just the way God made him.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

I firmly believe in protesting every step we make as a society in the wrong direction because as time goes on, we become "used" to the way things are, and forget the way things should be. I suspect that you were born after Roe vs. Wade, so all you have ever known is legalized abortion, and have been indoctrinated in the idea that we have to accept everyone wanting to do anything they wish, or else we are bigots/racists/fascists.

Once it is okay to kill the unborn, then it becomes okay to kill children, the sick, the elderly, anyone who isn't seen as worthy of life. I would be one of the first to go since I am disabled. I am many people's idea of a wasted life, an inconvenience. If I can't help protect the most vulnerable, who is going to stand up to protect me, when the idea police come to my door.[/quote]
well said!!

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717466' date='Dec 3 2008, 11:42 AM']I dont think anybody who looks at abortion looks at it as a 'good' thing.[/quote]
obviously you've never read any of Camile Paglia's articles

[Noel's angel]

nvzbl, I'm a bit confused about exactly what you DO think.

It isn't possible to be against abortion but pro choice at the same time. Also, what 'safe sex' is this you would be promoting?

Edited December 3, 2008 by Noel's angel

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717422' date='Dec 3 2008, 02:11 PM']And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro Choice, with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against abortion personally and promote safe sex and cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.[/quote]

This violates the Principal of Non-Contradiction. Pro-Choice is Pro-Abortion, one can not be both against something and also for something. "No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other."

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1717503' date='Dec 3 2008, 03:02 PM']This violates the Principal of Non-Contradiction. Pro-Choice is Pro-Abortion, one can not be both against something and also for something. "No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other."[/quote]


that's not necessarily true.

and you're also being inconsistent yourself, unless you're willing to say "all sins should be outlawed".
otherwise, one could say you violated the principle of contradiction. "i personally oppose sinning, but i'm not going to ban every sin out there"

if you question the personhood of the cell early on, and value freedom of choice above questionable but very possibly human life, i think it'd be reasonable to be prochoice but personally opposed.

but, i think it's crazy to think killing is okay if you're personally opposed to it, ie if you actually think that it's killing. it's irrational. not cause of the principle of noncontradiction though, cause killing outside of the womb and inside are different at least in some degrees. ie there's always a distinction one could base their judgment on.
if you presuppose you can't make those distinctions, or they are maningless, then it's you who are creating the strawman arguably, by saying what they beleive. "the distinction is meansingless therefore X"
what should be argued is a more normative thing... "you sholdn't believe the distinction is meaningful cause Y"

Edited December 3, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717422' date='Dec 3 2008, 02:11 PM']And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro Choice, with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against abortion personally and promote safe sex and cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.[/quote]

My belief is that abortion is the ending of a human life, so I can't and don't promote letting anyone have the choice to do it any more than I can say that they have a choice to kill the guy across the street or the woman next door. I definitely believe that we need to have compassion and understanding and most pro-life people I know do too. It isn't for us to judge a person, but I believe we should speak up for the unborn children, who do not have the ability to speak for themselves.We must be compassionate and teach God's forgiveness, that is definitely true. I don't think someone who has had an abortion is loved less by God- I believe that forgiveness is available to everyone. -Katie

[Winchester]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717422' date='Dec 3 2008, 01:11 PM']And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro [s]Choice[/s] [color="#FF0000"]child molestation legalization[/color], with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against [s]abortion [/s] [color="#FF0000"]child molestation[/color]personally and promote safe [s]sex [/s][color="#FF0000"]child molestation[/color]and cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.[/quote]
You neglect to count the unborn as a person, or you discount the rights of the unborn to life. Logically and scientifically, you are legalizing the killing of a human person at the whim of another. Substitute any clearly immoral action and you should see the error in your statement.

[Fidei Defensor]

lol.

I'm pro-[b]choice[/b] but anti-religion. I hate religion. I think it turns people's brains into mush and causes them to become like robots, following anything their leader tells them. However, I am pro-[b]choice[/b] and I think that everyone has the [b]choice[/b] to follow a religion, even if I think they are complete morons for doing so.

That's why pro-choice isn't necessarily pro-abortion. Not everyone believes a fetus is a person. I'm quite aware of all the fuss you throw about it being one. But that doesn't change the fact that SOME PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE THAT. You can call it whatever you want, but until you take a walk in someone else's shoes and understand what they believe, you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. There are honest to God people out there who don't see why a fetus is a person and are pro-choice, but not pro-abortion.